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From "Alexandre Poitras" <>
Subject Re: friday ha ha
Date Wed, 19 Apr 2006 21:53:36 GMT
On 4/19/06, Dave Newton <> wrote:
> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> > Dave Newton wrote:
> >> If it _didn't_ make somebody shudder I'd seriously question their
> >> overall programming knowledge... at some point you have to start over.
> >
> > Well, that's one assessment. OTOH, it is problematic to think that if
> > somebody disagrees with you on this or something else that it calls
> > into question their professional competence.
> Let's see...
> "[...] if somebody disagrees with you on this or something else [...]"
> You added the "or something else" part. I was addressing the idea that
> refactoring Struts 1.x to the degree necessary to make it a "modern
> solution" (the definition of which is yet another debate I shall not be
> bothered with.)
> I stand by what I said: it's simply not worth the effort when other,
> better [IMO] solution exist, and I would most certainly question the
> knowledge of someone that disagreed with me. Would I _listen_ to why
> s/he thinks it'd be worth it? For a little while, sure, until I made a
> decision regarding their professional competence.
> I guess it's "taboo" to call people's professional competence into
> question though.
> That's weird, 'cuz I do that almost every day. Heck, when I was more
> directly involved in the hiring/firing/etc. I often did it several times
> a day. When I was looking at resumes I'd question competence on a
> line-by-line basis.
> > Again, I think my point stands: if there is no desire on the part of
> > existing Struts committers to do anything with the Struts 1.x
> > codebase, then there is really nothing to lose by letting other people
> > who want to develop that come in and do something.
> Of course _you_ think your point stands, why else would you bother?
> (Well, I wonder why you'd bother anyway since you're not involved in the
> web-app space, or Struts, but this seems to be a long-term ongoing issue
> with you. It's okay little buddy; we've all got our issues.)
> The point _I_ made regarding willy-nilly commit rights also still
> stands: I know _I_ wouldn't have time to review everybody's new code,
> stability is important to me, so I don't _want_ just anybody to have
> commit access.
> > If you say so... I am not quite sure what the basis of our
> > disagreement on that was. And I have to point out that, okay, you can
> > disagree with me, but it's hardly a symmetrical thing. I have actual
> > experience running open source projects. You apparently do not.
> And? I guess that invalidates anything I have to say.
> You're not a politician (and, I suspect, have never been one) so I will
> not listen to anything you have to say regarding the current Iraq
> situation, which you inappropriately tried to use as an example saying
> that just because you have an opinion on it doesn't mean you should have
> to go over there and fix it. Obviously you going over there would not
> fix that particular problem.
> Although it might fix several others.
> > But anyway, to focus on the question of our disagreement on this,
> > let's take a specific case in point. I am not acquainted personally
> > with Phil Zoio, the author of Strecks. It's not like I have some
> > agenda of "championing his cause" or something like that; it's just a
> > case in point to focus discussion. Now, it seems self-evident that
> > this is a guy who is able and willing to do some quality work. Now, my
> > view of things is that there is really no legitimate reason not to
> > immediately make somebody like that a committer on the Struts project,
> > if he wanted to do work on 1.x. (Again, if he or others want to do
> > something with it and the existing committers don't...)
> >
> > Do you disagree with my view on this? If you do, what is the basis for
> > your disagreement?
> Yes, I disagree.
> I don't know Phil, I haven't seen Strecks, haven't seen the code, etc.
> so I have zero basis for saying he's "able and willing to do some
> quality work." That's a show-stopper.
> "Oh, he has an open-source project that sounds and looks good, and he
> wants to work." Those are not credentials. He might be the greatest
> programmer ever, Strecks might be the bestest thing since sliced bread
> (but it's not because it's not Lisp or SmallTalk, but whatever), and
> maybe it _should_ be brought in. Awesome--but _I_ don't know that.
> So I would remain agnostic pending further information.
> I still don't know why you care so much about, and spend so much time
> discussing, a project you're not interested in.

Maybe a big big big EGO :) Funny how Jonathan or Dakota are always so
quick to anwser when it comes to the future of Struts or Apache but
they don't answer any other questions on this list. I'm not better but
I highly appreciate what Apache has done for me in the last couple of
years and before critizing it so harshly I would try to participate a
little bit more. Hey guys, you don't need any commit privileges to
answer questions or make suggestions on this list by the way.

> Dave
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