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From Dakota Jack <>
Subject Re: Struts 2.0 or Struts 0.0? [or Struts 1.42?]
Date Tue, 01 Feb 2005 16:04:16 GMT
On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 06:50:13 -0500, Ted Husted <> wrote:
> Meanwhile, another potentially great framework has come along: Shale. Like Struts, Shale
is MVC web framework, but it doesn't share any code or architectural hallmarks with Struts

As Rod Johnson (the brrains behind Spring) says:

"Do not try to combine approaches that do not naturally fit.  Struts
is at its core concerned with request-driven web MVC, while JSF is
focused on page-centric RAD with per event action listeners.  Both
approaches have merit, but trying to combine them does not add much
value except for interim solutions when migrating from one to the

Please don't respond to this email by saying that those who do can do
anything they like.  They can, of course, but that does not mean it
makes much sense except for marketing purposes for JSF.  (I personally
think that this will just confuse people to no end and that before the
tools that JSF is built to accommodate come out, those who are
expected to use it and are taregeted to do so will have gone
elsewhere.  We'll see.)  Struts-Shale is purely a market ploy for
Sun's JSF and has nothing to do with Struts other than the Struts
committers got "roped-a-doped".  However, if the Struts community has
had a failure of nerve in the marketplace of controller based MVC
frameworks and no longer wishes to seriously compete in this area
(ceding with Craig that other MVC frameworks are superior) but merely
to take care of the old product, this probably does not matter.  If
Ted is abandoning Jericho, then the place to develop Struts-like
frameworks is probably elsewhere, in my opinion.  And, despite
pressure the the contrary, I am entitled to my opinion.  It will be
interesting to see what happens down the road.

As Rod Johnson also says:

"Newer JSF early access releases seem to address everything that
Struts does in terms of action and form handling, rendering Struts-JSF
integration little use except for migration-path and marketing

If Struts is not going to develop but rather is merely going to give
its name to JSF and keep doing what it is doing in the 1.x series,
abandoning any idea of "web-modernity" as in Jericho, then I am soon
off to another (as Craig says) superior true MVC framework like
Spring.  I hope this does not create a rash of silly and personal
responses as it usually does.

I do have a serious question which I hope can be answered with out all
the bile that is typical in this area.  How is JSF or Shale MVC? 
Where is the C?  I know that this is called a "View Controller", etc. 
But, that is just another 1984ish use of a word, isn't it?  The point
of MVC is that the architecture *separates* the M, the V and C, but in
Shale or JSF there is only an M and a V, aren't there?

"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
"Heaven has changed.  The Sky now goes all the way to our feet.

~Dakota Jack~

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