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Subject: Re: Administrative controls /  management of the mailing lists
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From: Tony Stevenson <pctony@apache.org>
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Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 23:40:52 +0100
Cc: Terry Ellison <Terry@ellisons.org.uk>
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To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org


On 1 Sep 2011, at 23:02, Terry Ellison wrote:

> Dennis,
>=20
> The short answer is IMHO: that's correct -- No.  As to the long one: =
...
>=20
> Oracle stopped its major funding of OOo as a mainstream product for =
sound commercial reasons -- though this has resulted in personal =
consequences for a lot of people who worked on OOo and who no longer =
have a job.  Now we've now got some services running unmanned, because =
the people have gone.
>=20
> We were lucky as far as the OOo wiki was concerned in that I was =
already providing expert support to the Oracle guy who ran the system, =
and I was able to step in with his active cooperation before he "left =
the building".
>=20
> I believe that Oracle that wants to ensure a "bumpless" transfer to =
the Apache project wherever possible, and it will find the necessary =
mechanisms to grant project members who have the right technical skills =
and track record to take over these systems.  Our main problem is that =
this list currently seems to contains one name -- mine, though there are =
others who could potentially step into this gap: for example Raphael, =
Kay and Drew.  However we are all already working to our limits.  Maybe =
we just need a cloning machine :(
>=20

All we would need is some documentation and then infra can help out with =
this as needed.=20

> Quite honestly -- and I can only speak personally -- at the moment I =
feel that I am caught between a rock and a hard place.  My work is time =
consuming and the skills are different to the mainstream C++ trained OOo =
developer, but they are also different to a pure sysAdmin.  In some ways =
you need to be an expert in *both* these worlds and to be able to =
integrate this expertise.  I am not talking about enthusiastic newbie =
volunteers; I am talking about hacks who have done this so many times =
that it's routine.  Again this only my personal experience, but I feel =
that Apache is unwelcoming to newcomers and this seems to be an endemic =
culture, albeit strongly advocated by a few individuals.

I wouldn't disagree with you, but I certainly wouldn't outright agree =
with you.

>  It is intolerant and often outrightly hostile to domains of expertise =
outside its comfort area -- even though these may be more relevant to =
the work and Apache's wider mission.  In short I am being asked to work =
long hours on technically demanding tasks in a dysfunctional =
environment.  If I was being paid to do what I am doing now, then I =
would be seriously thinking about changing jobs -- and this is from a =
guy who spent 32 years working with the same company working to get to =
its top technical tier -- and also one who is now doing this work =
pro-bono.

Oh my god.  I am starting to get bored with your relentless tirades =
about how you are working so hard, and long hours.  Join the frickin' =
club, you are by no means the only one who does this, and you certainly =
won't be the last.  This is after all a volunteer organisation. =20

In other words get off your high horse.  Calm down, and please try to =
adjust to our way of working.  Thus far we have essentially done what =
ever you have asked of us, regardless of how daft they sounded to us. =
Please don't keep rolling out how you have spent your working life, =
getting to the top of the pile.  It's hardly a glowing reference, I mean =
EDS is hardly well known for it's quality of service.  But this is my =
personal opinion. =20

You know what, all you have managed to achieve in the past few weeks is =
get my back up with your petulant comments and side swipes at the infra =
team in general.  Several of us how gone out of our way to provide you =
with answers to questions you had.  I even explained something to you at =
great pain in IRC, only for you to ignore me.  You basically lost me =
there.=20

Why does everything seem to have to be   molehill -> mountain with you?  =
If you can't take criticism or feedback, the infra group will feel like =
an over-bearing place to be, but we actually have the best of =
intentions. =20

So, when you are ready to listen to what advice and feedback we have =
given you, and you stop throwing your tantrums - I for one would be =
willing to welcome you back so we can all move on and see some results.


> So we do have the means in terms of Oracle enabling, but we, the =
project, don't have the resources / expertise to step up to this. If I =
am still here in 3 months and this is still an outstanding issue, then =
I'll try to sort it out.
>=20
> Regards Terry
>=20
> On 01/09/11 20:59, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
>> Um, so your answer is no?
>>=20
>> You do not have any means to deal with that mailing list issue on the =
live openoffice.org site?
>>=20
>> Any suggestions?
>>=20
>>  - Dennis
>>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Terry Ellison [mailto:Terry@ellisons.org.uk]
>> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 12:04
>> To:dennis.hamilton@acm.org
>> Cc:ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> Subject: Administrative controls / management of the mailing lists
>>=20
>> Dennis,
>>=20
>> As we've discussed previously there is almost a "religious" split
>> between those that work on forums and those that work on MLs and DLs.
>> Very few of those involved in the governance of the forums would have
>> anything to do with DLs/MLs and v.v.
>>=20
>> However, what you are really talking about is a configuration issue =
of
>> the mail forwarder.  It's more an application issue if we get control =
of
>> the application support.  I have exactly the same issues with my mail
>> responder that is built into the forums.
>>=20
>>> Terry, do you know if those administrative controls extend to the
>>> management of the mailing lists, such as the ones for
>>> http://fr.openoffice.org  (apparently at
>>> <http://openoffice.org/projects/fr/lists>).
>>>=20
>>> Do you have any information on how we can empower someone to block a
>>> bad echo?
>>>=20
>>> Every post to the more-heavily-populated lists there generates three
>>> notices fromservice-clients@sc.sfr.fr. Then we need to find the
>>> subscribers whose e-mail addresses are landing at the responding =
site
>>> and disable those.
>>>=20
>>> I also fear that there is nothing in our planned work to preserve
>>> these portions of the openoffice.org domain.
>>>=20
>>> - Dennis
>>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Terry Ellison [mailto:Terry@ellisons.org.uk]
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 09:47
>>> To:ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>> Subject: An invitation to committers to the OOo Community Forums
>>>=20
>>> Anyone is able to join the OOo Community forums, but we also have a
>>> number of closed forums use for internal management of the site. If =
any
>>> committers would like to have access to these, then just make sure =
that
>>> they've got an active account on the current production service (not
>>> ooo-forums.apache.org) and email me me from it requesting access. I
>>> will then raise you to "volunteer" so that you can see the main =
closed
>>> forums.
>>>=20
>>> Please note: the forum rules apply to all and all volunteers are
>>> expected to follow them -- including me or any other committer.
>>>=20
>>> Regards
>>> Terr
>=20


Tony

---------------------------------------
Tony Stevenson

tony@pc-tony.com // pctony@apache.org
tony@caret.cam.ac.uk

http://blog.pc-tony.com

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