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Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 16:27:48 +0200
From: =?UTF-8?B?UmVpemluZ2VyIFpvbHTDoW4=?= <zreizinger@hdsnet.hu>
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To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and
 volunteers
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Hi Rob,

As a Hu forum admin and not a native English speaker lot of time raised 
the forum question from beginning.
I dissatisfied with your ignorant behavior to forums, you not want to 
make any steps to understand our questions.

Not registered into forums, and not see into the discussions.

Why you think the volunteers and admins will join to this list, if you 
not makes any steps into the other directions?

Regards,
Zoltan


The forums works differently what Apache works, and you can understand

2011.09.04. 16:15 keltezéssel, Rob Weir írta:
> On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 7:31 AM, Terry Ellison<Terry@ellisons.org.uk>  wrote:
>> A few days ago, I made the statement below and received a generally robust
>> and unapologetic response.  I don't want to rehash this again, but this
>> tipped the balance for me and I decided to finish off my work with Apache
>> and hand over.  What has somewhat surprised me and this is the issue that I
>> want to flag up the the PPMC in this note, is the volume and tone of the
>> general responses that I received when I let the forums know of my decision
>> to hand over and stand down.
>>
> I don't see anything recent from you on the forums.  Can you send a
> link to your note and the responses?  It is much better to get first
> hand information, I think, then to have it filtered through someone
> else.
>
>> In essence my concerns and fears seem to be shared by most of the NL admins,
>> moderators and volunteers that staff the forums and do over 90% of the work
>> to respond to end users.  Until this last week my views were probably at the
>> more positive end of the spectrum.  If this happens then we aren't going to
>> be left with any functioning forums, so I am starting to consider quite
>> seriously why I am continuing to do this work at all.
>>
> I would encourage the NL admins to be as vocal as you are, and to
> raise their issues directly on ooo-dev.   It will be very hard for
> them to acclimate to Apache, and for us to understand their concerns,
> if they do not participate directly on the project's primary
> discussion list.  I'm grateful, of course, for any attempts to collect
> and consolidate feedback and bring it to this list, but that is an
> inadequate substitute for an authentic two-way conversion.
>
> The following pieces of advice you've offered us are all good topics
> for discussion.  What can we do to get the admins to come over and
> discuss these items?  Note that discussing these points a private
> forum would go against the need for overall transparency.  So the
> admins need to meet us half-way here.
>
> -Rob
>
>> Please consider taking active steps:
>>
>>    * To realise that these people spend all of their pro-bono time
>>      working in the forum model and generally hate using email for
>>      anything other than 1-1 communication.  We need to have a mutually
>>      efficient way of working together.
>>    * To understand that the forums are a well oiled machine that are
>>      administered tightly and efficiently and have been for years.
>>   Please understand how the system works and what its strengths and
>>      weakness are, before demanding changes.
>>    * Please don't demand, but provide rational explanations for the
>>      need to change and use sensible change management to change
>>      working policies and practices.
>>    * Reach out and consider how to work with people for whom English is
>>      a second language, who find it hard work to read a simple and well
>>      formatted document or post and who just cannot follow complex
>>      email threads that are a dozen levels deep and get completely
>>      mangled by some respondents:
>>          o Keep thread simple and maintain thread discipline
>>          o Try to give direct answers to direct questions
>>          o All participants configure their email clients to use
>>            "text/plain; format=flowed" encoding, as "text/plain" only
>>            can completely mangle nesting of reply content.
>>
>> Of course the PPMC doesn't have to do any of this, but also please accept my
>> parting advice that if you don't then you are effectively and knowingly
>> killing the forums off.  At some point these people will have decide whether
>> to stay and tough it out; to leave one-by-one; or to take this service
>> elsewhere.
>>
>> Regards Terry Ellison
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> On 01/09/11 23:02, Terry Ellison wrote:
>>> Quite honestly -- and I can only speak personally -- at the moment I feel
>>> that I am caught between a rock and a hard place.  My work is time consuming
>>> and the skills are different to the mainstream C++ trained OOo developer,
>>> but they are also different to a pure sysAdmin.  In some ways you need to be
>>> an expert in *both* these worlds and to be able to integrate this expertise.
>>>   I am not talking about enthusiastic newbie volunteers; I am talking about
>>> hacks who have done this so many times that it's routine.  Again this only
>>> my personal experience, but I feel that Apache is unwelcoming to newcomers
>>> and this seems to be an endemic culture, albeit strongly advocated by a few
>>> individuals.  It is intolerant and often outrightly hostile to domains of
>>> expertise outside its comfort area -- even though these may be more relevant
>>> to the work and Apache's wider mission.  In short I am being asked to work
>>> long hours on technically demanding tasks in a dysfunctional environment.
>>>   If I was being paid to do what I am doing now, then I would be seriously
>>> thinking about changing jobs -- and this is from a guy who spent 32 years
>>> working with the same company working to get to its top technical tier --
>>> and also one who is now doing this work pro-bono
>>
>>