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From Christian Grobmeier <>
Subject Re: What is needed for Support Forums to be fully integrated into the Apache project
Date Mon, 05 Sep 2011 14:55:56 GMT

> If the Forums are to be well-integrated into the project, I think we need:>

I think an integration is possible. I am currently reading the topics
on the forum in admin area and it is rather enlgihtening.

> == PPMC Oversite and Approval of Forum Policies ==
> Remember, the Forum volunteers -- 75 of them -- are not all committers
> or PPMC members.  Very few of them are.  Very few of of them are
> following this ooo-dev list.

Do you have a number how many of them are committers?
Are a few more of them eligible as committers?

> 1) The Terms of Use and other policy documents used by the Forum
> should be reviewed and approved by the PPMC, and for the former, also
> by Apache legal.


> 2) We need to develop a privacy policy for the Forums, also to be
> reviewed by the PPMC and Apache legal


> 3) Changes to Forum policies, TOU and privacy policy would require a
> proposal on ooo-dev, and discussion and consensus reached there.  It
> is possible that preliminary public discussions could occur in other
> places first, such as on the Forums themselves.  But the project's
> official discussions and decisions are made on ooo-dev.    In other
> words, if it didn't happen on the project's main list (ooo-dev), it
> didn't happen.

Well, I don't think this is fully possible. What exactly do you want
to discuss on ooo-dev? Typos? Deleting spam posts? This kind of stuff
is not possible to do here. Its just annoying for devs and volunteers.

If you speak on opening a new subforum - I also think it is not
necessary to discuss on ooo-dev.
One of the main concerns with "it is doesn happen" is people need to
get the chance to follow back the discussion. What, if the forums are
an official channel and what if they are backed up? They have the same
benefits as mailinglists.

To follow the things which happen, I would rather suggest a
forumedits@ooo.i.a.o list. All edits to the forum are mailed to the
list (of course not all, not thousands of mails please).

> 4) We need the Forum website to conform to Apache branding
> requirements, including the podling-specific requirements


> ==Approval of Forum roles==
> My understanding is that forums have essentially three roles:
> a) Users
> b) Moderators, who delete, edit and move all posts, ban users, etc.
> c) Admins who can also create new forums and assign moderator rights
> 5) Users require no special treatment.  They are like subscribers to a
> users list.


> 6) Being listed as an "admin" or "moderator" on a public-facing Apache
> website suggests endorsement by the project, and aside from any
> enhanced Forum capabilities enhances your ability to keep order on the
> Forums.  In other words, it is the star that makes the sheriff, not
> the gun.  But this endorsement, to be meaningful, should be made
> authentic.   So Admins and Moderators should be approved by the PPMC.
> This kind of routine approval is given all the time for those who want
> to be list moderators.  I see no reason why we cannot, initially at
> least, simply receive a list of current volunteers to ooo-private and
> approve them all.

Moderators and Admins - maybe they should be committers?
If not - how can the PPMC judge over people on the board when not
acting on the board?
We need at least 3 PPMC members on the forum.

> 7) Future grants of admin/moderator rights would require a proposal to
> ooo-dev seeking lazy consensus.  Such a proposal could originate from
> a forum volunteer or could originate from anyone on ooo-dev. This is
> no different than someone asking to be a moderator for a mailing list.


> 8) Any project committer, on request, will be made a forum admin or
> moderator.  This is how it works with every other project resource --
> mailing lists, source code, website, etc.   Committers have rights to
> pretty much everything on the project.  We trust our committers. We
> don't segregate the project into exclusive zones of ownership.


> ==Transparency==
> 9) We need all private forum discussions to be echoed to a log or
> mailing list where PPMC and Apache Members can view them.  One way of
> doing this is to echo posts to ooo-private.  Another way is to
> periodically commit logs to the PPMC's private directory.  There may
> be other ways as well.

I suggest forumedit-ooo@i.a.o or something

> 10) The use of private forums must be used for only discussions of
> specific moderation cases.  It must not be used for discussion of
> routine board operations.

I discussed that over at the forum, that seems to be OK.

> ==Integration into the larger AOOo community==
> Although the forum volunteers appear to have been previously isolated,
> not involved in larger project discussions and decision making, this
> is not optimal for providing support, and it is not optimal for the
> project overall.  We need to encourage cross-pollination and sharing
> of information.  Forums operating in isolation from the rest of the
> project will limit our future success.
> 11) One admin or moderator from each of the 10 language-specific
> boards should be signed up on the ooo-dev list and ooo-users list.
> This could also be done by requiring that Forum Admins also be
> Committers, but that is not something we are starting with, though it
> could be an eventual goal.

if we have PPMC there...

> 12) We should also encourage existing committers to participate
> directly in answering questions on the support forum.  It is valuable
> to see how ordinary users use the product and the difficulties they
> encounter.  It puts our coding decisions in perspective.  This is a
> two-way street.  It is not just to encourage support volunteers to be
> more aware of other parts of the project, but also to make other parts
> of the project more involved with support, or at least more aware.
> We're all on the same project.  Our actions and decisions impact each
> other.


> 13) The PPMC should give serious consideration to forum
> admins/moderators who help with the above tasks, for approval as
> Committers and PPMC members.   It is important that the PPMC always be
> looking out for merit that should be recognized.  It does not matter
> that the forum volunteers did not previously participate in overall
> discussions of the project's direction.  That was then, this is now.
> We will all benefit from having support volunteers as part of the
> decision making process, including the important decision of approving
> a release.

14) The forums will create a report due 5 days before the OOo project
reports to the board/incubator. In taht short report they show the
status of the forums (operation normal/not)


> Regards,
> -Rob


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