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From Rob Weir <>
Subject Re: What is needed for Support Forums to be fully integrated into the Apache project
Date Mon, 05 Sep 2011 18:33:19 GMT
On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Larry Gusaas <> wrote:
> On 2011-09-05 11:26 AM  Rob Weir wrote:
>> If you want to create a support forum outside of the Apache project
>> then you do not need the approval of the PPMC.  I don't see that
>> outcome as at all tragic.  We already have one independent forum. I
>> see no reason why there cannot be two or more.  I don't really have a
>> strong opinion on that.
> Your antagonistic attitude indicates you do not want a forum. You continue
> to alienate the people giving support on the forums and the OOo mailing
> lists.

I'm in no way antagonistic to the support forums.  Remember, I'm the
one that engaged in early discussions with the forum admins to
encourage them to come to Apache.  I was talking to them back when
were were just at proposal stage.  I encouraged them and explained how
they could sign up as initial committers.  I'm the one who answered
their questions.  I'm the one who proposed Terry as a committer.  So
I've gone out of my way, at every turn, to help and encourage the
forum to come to Apache.

> Do you want experienced people giving support to Apache ooo? Where do you
> expect to find volunteers to do so if you alienate the people doing so now?
> Do you expect the developers to give it?

That is not the question we are discussing.  We are discussing whether
the experienced people support OOo from within an Apache project or as
an independent group outside of Apache. From what I can see, working
independently seems like an entirely feasible approach.  We have an
example of to show that this approach can work.  Working
within Apache is also feasible, but would require giving up some of
the autonomy that the support forums have historically had.  The
trade-offs of these alternatives is something that the forum
volunteers should discuss and decide on their own.  But if they do
have a preference for working within Apache then they will need to
understand how Apache projects work, and work within that system.

>> The choice is entirely yours.
> Actually, the choice is partially yours. If you want a support community you
> need to make those currently experienced at giving support welcome in this
> project. That means working with them to make a forum that works for
> everyone participating in it and is within Apache guidelines.
> Issuing ultimatums does not create a positive response in the support
> community. Perhaps you could be a bit diplomatic in your approach.

No one is issuing an ultimatum.  The forum volunteers claim to be
autonomous.  I'm treating them as such, per their wishes. I'm not
presuming that they want to come to Apache.  If an autonomous group
wishes to propose bringing a service to an Apache project, then that
is done via a proposal and a discussion on that proposal.  We can have
preliminary chats on the topic as well, but at some point those who
wish to do something must make a proposal.  That is how the decision
making process works at Apache.

>> I'd recommend consulting more with the
>> other forum volunteers, and see if you can reach a consensus among
>> yourselves on what you want to do.
> Why don't you take up Terry's offer to become able to participate in the
> forum so you can see how it works and then you could make constructive
> comments on how to bring it within  Apache guidelines

I think the next step is for the forum volunteers to agree on what
they want.  I thought they had agreed to come to Apache, based on
discussions I had with them on and off list over the past two months.
But now I'm not sure they have a consensus on this.  In the end there
are 75 forum volunteers, but in this discussion we're hearing from
only 2 or 3 of them.  If I claimed to speak for 75 other volunteers
I'd be crucified.  So I'm just going to wait for the forum volunteers
-- all of them -- to reach consensus on what they want to do.  I do
not need to be part of that discussion.  But if any forum volunteer
wants to talk off line with me, I'm easy to reach.

> Do you want experienced people giving support to the project?

Again, that is not the question we are discussing.  We are discussing
whether the experienced people support OOo from within an Apache
project or as an independent group outside of Apache.  The ball is in
the support forum's court on this.


> --
> _________________________________
> Larry I. Gusaas
> Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
> Website:
> "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind
> theirs." - Edgard Varese

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