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From Hagar Delest <>
Subject Re: What is needed for Support Forums to be fully integrated into the Apache project
Date Mon, 05 Sep 2011 22:16:49 GMT
Hi All,

Back from some vacation, I'd a bunch of mail to read here...

Rob, are you paid to sabotage the move of the forums? Sorry but I was very reluctant to engage
here because of all the negative message you try to insinuate about the Volunteers of the
forums and how they handle the forums. Like we were some dark power... forget about Dan Brown
for a moment please.

You've indeed been contacted some months ago by an admin of the forum, who presented you the
forum and invited you to register and discuss with all the Volunteers (which you never done).
There has been some small talks and your tone was at this time very fair and constructive.
You even proposed that the moderators and admins could be made committers [automatically is
my reading between the lines]. Then mail discussion ended waiting for things to start officially.
And then Terry proceeded with the big work. But your tone on the mailing list was completely
different afterward, very difficult to believe after the good impression you had made. You're
really good at politics, I've to admit.

But there are some open minds here (thanks especially to Christian and Dennis) so well, all
is not lost perhaps.

We are a group of users who believes in OOo.
We like to help other users through forums (some like ML, we prefer forum, that's life).
The question of the forum in the Oracle donation was not clear so we HAD to approach ASF to
check what would be the future. As you (Rob) were the most "visible" on the web, you've been
All Volunteers are have not applied to the committer role because you never engaged with us
directly on the forum. Most of the Volunteers don't care about how ASF works. They like to
help other users and they just do that.

The forum has been created because of the lack of administration of the initial forum (oooforum
which is still a great place for code snippets). Nobody but the owner had any power to improve
the forum (spam is still a plague over there it seems) and the owner is nowhere to be found.
The forum has been settled by users and has given users the power to improve it through the
Volunteer status (a kind of meritocracy if you want). It's amazing how you ask us to trust
you but you can't trust a group of users just wanting to help... But you're 1 vote, that's
all. I hope the list will get the picture.

As for your proposal, here are my votes below, in your mail.

If you want another committer, then take this mail as a request to be one.

[Edit] Sent from the registered mail address.
I would add: please remember that you're dealing with a mass end-user oriented project! Not
something you were used to handle I think. The forums as long as the OOo ML are not sub-parts
of the community, they are the community. And most of the users don't care about the governance
of the project as long as the product is fine for them.

OOo User Community EN co-admin & moderator
NB: previously known as Hagar de l'Est

Le dim. 04 sept. 2011 16:36:27 CEST, Rob Weir <> a écrit :
> 1) The Terms of Use and other policy documents used by the Forum
> should be reviewed and approved by the PPMC, and for the former, also
> by Apache legal.

> 2) We need to develop a privacy policy for the Forums, also to be
> reviewed by the PPMC and Apache legal
-1. Doesn't it come from the private forum issue? There is no issue. You've your private list,
we have a private section. You want access to it? No problem.
We handle governance issue in private? OK, we can change that. It was so just to avoid all
the lengthy discussions with users who just take the forum as a customer service and can't
help complaining.

> 3) Changes to Forum policies, TOU and privacy policy would require a
> proposal on ooo-dev, and discussion and consensus reached there.  It
> is possible that preliminary public discussions could occur in other
> places first, such as on the Forums themselves.  But the project's
> official discussions and decisions are made on ooo-dev.    In other
> words, if it didn't happen on the project's main list (ooo-dev), it
> didn't happen.

> 4) We need the Forum website to conform to Apache branding
> requirements, including the podling-specific requirements

> ==Approval of Forum roles==
> My understanding is that forums have essentially three roles:
> a) Users
> b) Moderators, who delete, edit and move all posts, ban users, etc.
> c) Admins who can also create new forums and assign moderator rights
> 5) Users require no special treatment.  They are like subscribers to a
> users list.

> 6) Being listed as an "admin" or "moderator" on a public-facing Apache
> website suggests endorsement by the project, and aside from any
> enhanced Forum capabilities enhances your ability to keep order on the
> Forums.  In other words, it is the star that makes the sheriff, not
> the gun.  But this endorsement, to be meaningful, should be made
> authentic.   So Admins and Moderators should be approved by the PPMC.
> This kind of routine approval is given all the time for those who want
> to be list moderators.  I see no reason why we cannot, initially at
> least, simply receive a list of current volunteers to ooo-private and
> approve them all.
-1. Same as Zoltan. Except if admins and moderators are PPMC themselves. They are the ones
who monitor the forum, know the users by reading their posts and how they react.

> 7) Future grants of admin/moderator rights would require a proposal to
> ooo-dev seeking lazy consensus.  Such a proposal could originate from
> a forum volunteer or could originate from anyone on ooo-dev. This is
> no different than someone asking to be a moderator for a mailing list.
-1. Same as above.

> 8) Any project committer, on request, will be made a forum admin or
> moderator.  This is how it works with every other project resource --
> mailing lists, source code, website, etc.   Committers have rights to
> pretty much everything on the project.  We trust our committers. We
> don't segregate the project into exclusive zones of ownership.

> ==Transparency==
> 9) We need all private forum discussions to be echoed to a log or
> mailing list where PPMC and Apache Members can view them.  One way of
> doing this is to echo posts to ooo-private.  Another way is to
> periodically commit logs to the PPMC's private directory.  There may
> be other ways as well.
+1. There are already examples and solutions discussed in the forum (had you registered...)

> 10) The use of private forums must be used for only discussions of
> specific moderation cases.  It must not be used for discussion of
> routine board operations.
+1. What if users complain about how the governance is made? Ask them to be a committer? As
it would request him to do something, it's like to say sorry, you can see but you can't touch.
Not sure it's worth showing the cake then. But well, let's try it if you want.

> 11) One admin or moderator from each of the 10 language-specific
> boards should be signed up on the ooo-dev list and ooo-users list.
> This could also be done by requiring that Forum Admins also be
> Committers, but that is not something we are starting with, though it
> could be an eventual goal.

> 12) We should also encourage existing committers to participate
> directly in answering questions on the support forum.  It is valuable
> to see how ordinary users use the product and the difficulties they
> encounter.  It puts our coding decisions in perspective.  This is a
> two-way street.  It is not just to encourage support volunteers to be
> more aware of other parts of the project, but also to make other parts
> of the project more involved with support, or at least more aware.
> We're all on the same project.  Our actions and decisions impact each
> other.
+1. Will monitor this with great pleasure.
> 13) The PPMC should give serious consideration to forum
> admins/moderators who help with the above tasks, for approval as
> Committers and PPMC members.   It is important that the PPMC always be
> looking out for merit that should be recognized.  It does not matter
> that the forum volunteers did not previously participate in overall
> discussions of the project's direction.  That was then, this is now.
> We will all benefit from having support volunteers as part of the
> decision making process, including the important decision of approving
> a release.

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