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From "Gavin McDonald" <>
Subject RE: Administrative controls / management of the mailing lists
Date Thu, 01 Sep 2011 22:22:21 GMT

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Terry Ellison []
> Sent: Friday, 2 September 2011 8:02 AM
> To:
> Cc:
> Subject: Re: Administrative controls / management of the mailing lists
> Dennis,
> The short answer is IMHO: that's correct -- No.  As to the long one: ...
> Oracle stopped its major funding of OOo as a mainstream product for sound
> commercial reasons -- though this has resulted in personal consequences for
> a lot of people who worked on OOo and who no longer have a job.  Now
> we've now got some services running unmanned, because the people have
> gone.
> We were lucky as far as the OOo wiki was concerned in that I was already
> providing expert support to the Oracle guy who ran the system, and I was
> able to step in with his active cooperation before he "left the building".
> I believe that Oracle that wants to ensure a "bumpless" transfer to the
> Apache project wherever possible, and it will find the necessary mechanisms
> to grant project members who have the right technical skills and track record
> to take over these systems.  Our main problem is that this list currently
> seems to contains one name -- mine, though there are others who could
> potentially step into this gap: for example Raphael, Kay and Drew.  However
> we are all already working to our limits.  Maybe we just need a cloning
> machine :(

Once we have documentation in place, any infra person can jump in and help
should the need arise.

> Quite honestly -- and I can only speak personally -- at the moment I feel that
> I am caught between a rock and a hard place.  My work is time consuming
> and the skills are different to the mainstream C++ trained OOo developer,
> but they are also different to a pure sysAdmin.  In some ways you need to be
> an expert in *both* these worlds and to be able to integrate this expertise.  I
> am not talking about enthusiastic newbie volunteers; I am talking about
> hacks who have done this so many times that it's routine.  Again this only my
> personal experience, but I feel that Apache is unwelcoming to newcomers
> and this seems to be an endemic culture, albeit strongly advocated by a few
> individuals.  It is intolerant and often outrightly hostile to domains of
> expertise outside its comfort area -- even though these may be more
> relevant to the work and Apache's wider mission.  In short I am being asked
> to work long hours on technically demanding tasks in a dysfunctional
> environment. 

Nobody is asking you to so anything, you are a volunteer, you can do zero hours
if it pleases you, Your hours are governed by what you want to put in, not what
anybody tells you to do.

Please explain what you mean by dysfunctional?

FWIW I've been bending over backwards trying to help you with infra stuff, but you
are a stubborn old git who will not listen to how we do things around here. We have
accommodated just about every need, every weird way you do things, now it is time
for you to listen to us and fit in with us. I've been prepared to help you do this but
then you just go and piss me off with outlandish emails like this one.

 > If I was being paid to do what I am doing now, then I would be
> seriously thinking about changing jobs -- and this is from a guy who spent 32
> years working with the same company working to get to its top technical tier
> -- and also one who is now doing this work pro-bono.

This is a volunteer organisation, guess what, you are not the only person here doing
work for nothing. Please do not yet again spout off your credentials or your countless
millions of hours spent on this, we KNOW, we are very grateful but I am getting tired
of you always shoving it in our face as an excuse for us to have to bow down and do
it the Terry way. We are not stupid, do not treat us as stupid. You are not stupid, we know
that. We are not here to piss you off, but you seem to trying very hard to do that to me
at least. Now, quit the jibes and learn to do things in a way that will please us all.


> So we do have the means in terms of Oracle enabling, but we, the project,
> don't have the resources / expertise to step up to this. If I am still here in 3
> months and this is still an outstanding issue, then I'll try to sort it out.
> Regards Terry
> On 01/09/11 20:59, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> > Um, so your answer is no?
> >
> > You do not have any means to deal with that mailing list issue on the live
> site?
> >
> > Any suggestions?
> >
> >   - Dennis
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Terry Ellison []
> > Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 12:04
> >
> > Subject: Administrative controls / management of the mailing lists
> >
> > Dennis,
> >
> > As we've discussed previously there is almost a "religious" split
> > between those that work on forums and those that work on MLs and DLs.
> > Very few of those involved in the governance of the forums would have
> > anything to do with DLs/MLs and v.v.
> >
> > However, what you are really talking about is a configuration issue of
> > the mail forwarder.  It's more an application issue if we get control
> > of the application support.  I have exactly the same issues with my
> > mail responder that is built into the forums.
> >
> >> Terry, do you know if those administrative controls extend to the
> >> management of the mailing lists, such as the ones for
> >>  (apparently at
> >> <>).
> >>
> >> Do you have any information on how we can empower someone to block
> a
> >> bad echo?
> >>
> >> Every post to the more-heavily-populated lists there generates three
> >> notices Then we need to find the
> >> subscribers whose e-mail addresses are landing at the responding site
> >> and disable those.
> >>
> >> I also fear that there is nothing in our planned work to preserve
> >> these portions of the domain.
> >>
> >> - Dennis
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Terry Ellison []
> >> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 09:47
> >>
> >> Subject: An invitation to committers to the OOo Community Forums
> >>
> >> Anyone is able to join the OOo Community forums, but we also have a
> >> number of closed forums use for internal management of the site. If
> >> any committers would like to have access to these, then just make
> >> sure that they've got an active account on the current production
> >> service (not
> >> and email me me from it requesting access. I
> >> will then raise you to "volunteer" so that you can see the main
> >> closed forums.
> >>
> >> Please note: the forum rules apply to all and all volunteers are
> >> expected to follow them -- including me or any other committer.
> >>
> >> Regards
> >> Terr

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