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From "Dennis E. Hamilton" <>
Subject RE: What is needed for Support Forums to be fully integrated into the Apache project
Date Mon, 05 Sep 2011 18:23:13 GMT


What are you talking about?  No one has objected to the creation of the test migration and
the upgrades that Terry provided to satisfy Infrastructure.  And how does one "veto" in a
non-voting, non-lazy-consensus discussion.  Use of +1,0,-1 to express a sentiment, as many
of us do is one thing, but to regard your own -1 sentiment as a veto is really strange.

We are not live, but in a test location now (and it does not reflect the current state of
the forums on OO.o, *ALL* of them).  People should also stop thinking of the URL to the test
system as agreement on the future home, URL-wise.

We are discussing governance issues, as we should be. 

It was probably a mistake to have go-live outlooks without having dealt with governance and
the migration end-game first.  Also, timing of when the domains and the actual
hosting is transferred matters in determining how and when to go live with these services
under Apache infrastructure.  

That just means to me we are getting ahead of ourselves, as we evidently did by unilaterally
transferring the Bugzilla and not looking at what breakage would have to be prepared.  Terry
already lamented the risk of not having a PM to work with. Terry is also very new here (but
not on and he is drawing on his real experience elsewhere.  We were dying
to bring him on board.  Why is it only he has to suffer the learning curve?

I am not clear how a PM role would be described under the Apache Way, but Project Management
does not mean being the boss, but ensuring that all of the concrete dependencies are identified
and being managed: accounted for and reconciled. It is about keeping reality, and understanding
of risk, in existence. It is quite difficult for one individual to do development of any kind
and be the PM at the same time.  Some claim it is cognitively impossible.  And of course many
developers think it is unnecessary.

Let's stop with the personal attributions (and I mean Terry in this too), and stop claiming
anyone is ramming something down anybody's throat.  We were really hot for some action in
this area a month ago.  Now we have the law of unintended consequences in spades.
And, lest we forget, this is an incubator.  

 - Dennis

PS: I mistyped the quote unfortunately. For those who may not be aware of it:

"No one ever EXPECTS the Spanish Inquisition."  

It is a famous line from a Monty Python production.  There are others that could come in handy
around here, from time-to-time.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Weir [] 
Sent: Monday, September 05, 2011 10:26
Subject: Re: What is needed for Support Forums to be fully integrated into the Apache

On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 12:33 PM, Terry Ellison <> wrote:
> You criticise me for whipping out a résumé then list off a far longer one of
> your own accomplishments.  The main point that I draw from this rather
> comprehensive list is that few if any are relevant to the running of an
> end-user support organisation in 10 languages which is the scope of this
> discussion.  You might have run a forum. Big deal.  You know very little

We're discussing support forums within this Apache project.  That is
something which the PPMC must come to a consensus on.

[ ... ]

My -1 is a veto on ramming this through without a concrete proposal
that has been approved by the PPMC.  I have substantive questions on
how the forums would operate within an Apache project, and I've
written these up.  If there is eventually consensus from the forum
volunteers to propose moving to Apache then I will be looking there
for these questions to be addressed.


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