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From "Granroth, Neal V." <neal.granr...@thermofisher.com>
Subject RE: Lucene.NET Community Status
Date Thu, 04 Nov 2010 14:54:44 GMT
You are forgetting the people who test, report bugs, and assist new users.
There are a lot more people involved then just the four you've listed.

You are also forgetting the discussion that pointed out a move to CodePlex or other location
outside ASF would mostly likely kill the project.  The project greatly benefits from close
connections to Lucene (Java).

 - Neal



-----Original Message-----
From: Troy Howard [mailto:thoward37@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 1:17 AM
To: lucene-net-user@lucene.apache.org
Subject: Re: Lucene.NET Community Status

Phil,

I've been unsuccessful at finding the specific reference in the ASF policy
that covers this, but in a nutshell, yes, the code must be hosted by ASF, as
well as the websites, docs, etc... This will prevent anything other than a
mirror or branch existing on CodePlex.com.

If the project leaves ASF this is not a concern of course, but will need to
change it's name.

There are currently four commiters (taken from
http://lucene.apache.org/lucene.net/ ):

George Aroush george@aroush.net
Işık YİĞİT (DIGY) digydigy@gmail.com
Doug Sale dsale@myspace-inc.com
Michael Garski mgarski@myspace-inc.com


Based on SVN logs commit activity, DIGY is the most recent committer.
mgarksi's last commit was in 03/2010, and aroush in 12/2009.

Currently only George and DIGY are showing interest in the project in the
mailing lists. I would say that they are the people who would fit the bill
of "core active project leaders".

Thanks,
Troy


On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 9:52 PM, Phil Haack <philha@microsoft.com> wrote:

> I have a couple of naive questions, so forgive me. I see that Apache
> projects use SVN http://www.apache.org/dev/version-control.html
>
> But is it required to host Apache projects in this svn? The reason I ask is
> that a small change to hosting in a forge like CodePlex.com would provide
> the project huge exposure to more .NET developers. You could do this, but
> keep all other processes the same.
>
> Also, it makes keeping documentation really easy since they support
> MetaWeblog API, and thus Windows Live Writer. It might seem like I'm trying
> to hawk technology answers to organizational projects, but you'd be
> surprised by how much reducing the friction of documentation makes people
> more willing to write documentation. At least, for the projects I work on,
> I'm more than willing to contribute documentation when I can just point a
> blog client to it and publish.
>
> The other question I ask is who are the core active project leaders for
> Lucene.NET? I'd really like to understand what they want. I and others have
> many ideas, but it'd be helpful to understand what direction they want to
> take things and what things are non-negotiable so we have a framework to
> work with.
>
> Thanks,
> Phil
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Troy Howard [thoward37@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 8:47 PM
> To: lucene-net-user@lucene.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Lucene.NET Community Status
>
> All,
>
> I'm entering this conversation late as well. I'll apologize in advance, as
> I
> know this will be lengthy.
>
> Briefly, I'll list my "credentials" and reasons for concern here:
>
>  - I've been using Lucene.Net for many years since the early versions and
> have built significant products for my company using it. Those products are
> a core source of our revenue, which is measured in the millions of $$s. The
> success of my company's products are directly dependent on the success of
> the Lucene.Net project.
>
>  - I run software development at my company and make the final decisions
> about what we do and how we use our resources. The developers here work on
> open source code on our clock. I would like to have them start doing this
> for Lucene.Net. We have very smart and productive people who could be a
> huge
> asset to this project. I hope that the opportunity to leverage my company's
> team will not be bypassed by the people running this project.
>
>  - I have hacked extensively on the Lucene.Net internals to improve
> performance in our product and have been manually maintaining our local
> branch, merging in changes from the main project. I feel I have enough
> knowledge of both the CS theory behind search engines and in particular
> this
> codebase to not be intimidated by any aspect of the needs of this project.
>
>  - I started a similar kind of open source project in that it is a .Net
> implementation of an existing C++ open source project and struggled with
> the
> "syntactic port" vs "conceptual port" issue, and so have perspective to
> provide on that discussion
>
>
> Relationship To ASF and Lucene
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> I'd like to address one thing upfront: This should definitely remain an
> Apache Software Foundation project. As Grant and George have stated clearly
> and accurately, this is a huge benefit for this project in terms of it's
> credibility. This is not just because the name is well respected. It's
> because of WHY the Apache name is so well respected: the processes and
> values of the Foundation set excellent standards which encourages excellent
> code. This is not just my opinion, but can be objectively proven by the
> enormous success of the Apache projects. Complying with ASF's standards may
> be difficult, but it's  extremely valuable.
>
> I feel that Grant's recommendation of attempting to become a TLP at Apache
> is the wrong direction. This should remain part of the Lucene project. It
> is
> not unique in any substantial way from Lucene and thus doesn't warrant
> being
> separate.
>
> Also, there was some mention of Lucene's file format and maintaining that
> compatibility. This is essential. If this ever changes, Lucene.Net will be
> useless. Being cross platform and having a very stable on disk format is
> one
> of it's most compelling aspects.
>
>
> Microsoft's Interest and Involvement
> ---------------------------------------------------
>
> Another thing to mention: Phil Haack and Scott Hanselman, while both are
> Microsoft employees, are more than just a representative of the company
> they
> work for. They are both outstanding advocates of open source software and
> have been instrumental in the change of attitude that Microsoft has shown
> in
> recent years towards this community. The fact that they have shown interest
> in this issue doesn't mean Microsoft is interested, it means that this is a
> significant issue for the .Net open source community. The fact
> they they work for Microsoft means that they may be able to leverage
> resources and wield clout from that vantage point that can benefit our
> community greatly.
>
> Regarding the question "What can Microsoft do to help"?.... I'll take a
> somewhat radical stance here.
>
> We need Visual J# not to have been abandoned... We need IronJava, like
> IronPython or IronRuby. We need a native, MS developed and supported, fully
> optimized and performant compiler for plain old Java code that runs on the
> .Net runtime and exposes Java libraries to other .Net languages like F#,
> C#,
> VB, etc..
>
> There is a huge wealth of open source Java code out there, much of it in
> the
> Apache project archives, which would all be "ported" at once. Currently our
> community only gets access to Lucene.Net and iTextSharp and a few other
> libraries where dedicated people like George put in hard hours of direct
> syntax porting to implement these things in C#.
>
> We need more than that.
>
> I need Hadoop to run in .Net and HDFS, Hbase, Solr, Nutch, Tika, and
> everything else in that ecosystem.
>
> My company is actually at a critical point now, where we are considering
> abandoning .Net/WCF as our service layer platform, and switching to Java,
> so
> that we can leverage those excellent Java projects. Our business needs
> demand that we have what Hadoop does. It will be easier for me to migrate
> my
> application code to Java than to attempt to find equivalent functionality
> in
> the existing .Net world or write my own framework, or port Hadoop.
>
> So, if there was ONE thing that Microsoft could do to *significantly* help
> the .Net developer community, it would be providing a *real* implementation
> of IronJava which would obviate the need to port code completely, and
> simply
> allow those libraries and applications to run in .Net natively.
>
> That said, assuming that Visual J# remains "retired" (see:
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/vjsharp/default ) this project is one of
> the
> few things we .Net developers have to work with.
>
>
> Java or .Net Code Idioms
> -------------------------------------
>
> I agree that moving to a codebase that is more .Net idiomatic will both
> improve the user experience of end users of Lucene.Net but will also
> improve
> the level of involvement that we can get from the community. To put it
> simply, right now, hacking on the Lucene.Net core code means you
> must understand Java idioms well, and how to translate those to .Net. This
> is a skill set which is somewhat uncommon.
>
> The "direct port" methodology also leads to code that is not fully
> optimized
> for .Net. I have changed our local branch in a number of significant ways,
> and improved performance significantly by doing so. I didn't change APIs, I
> just change the implementations to be more appropriate for .Net, and
> included generics.
>
> The test suite provided with Lucene/Lucene.Net is a great benefit in that
> regard, and helped me ensure that my changes didn't break functionality.
> That said, the project need to improve in this regard. The classes
> themselves need to be implemented in a more "testable" manner. Abstract
> base
> classes instead of interfaces makes the code less mockable and thus less
> testable. It also makes it harder to implement customized components into
> the system. There are a number of things that are sealed or internal that
> do
> not need to be.
>
> Lucene (for Java) was awesome because it ran well as managed code and was
> elegant and efficient in Java's environment. Any port of Lucene should
> *retain those features* as well. The library should make sense and be
> implemented in the most elegant and efficient way that it can be on the
> platform it's implemented on. Lucene.Net should not be a port of Java
> Lucene
> to .Net, it should be an *implementation* of Lucene running in .Net.
> Porting
> implies line-for-line similarity. Implementing just implies that the
> features are all represented.
>
> For that reason, I support moving to a more idiomatic .Net implementation,
> verified by the unit tests. The argument that "it will require smart
> people"
> to understand the core code -- that's a *GOOD* requirement. If you don't
> understand how it works, conceptually, perhaps you should not be attempting
> to  implementing it. Merely porting or auto-converting code that "seems to
> be the same" and "passes the unit tests", without really understanding the
> details is not a safe way to ensure correct operation. What if there was a
> subtle difference between the two syntaxes which led to differing (ie
> incorrect) behaviour in some scenarios? What if the unit tests didn't cover
> that scenario?
>
> Regarding the help and support provided by the Lucene community, and the
> books and examples that provide code samples.. Changing to a more .Net
> idiomatic codebase, even if that meant top level API changes, would not be
> a
> substantial issue that would prevent a .Net developer from understanding
> example code written in Java. If the API is *basically* the same, but uses
> foo.Size instead of foo.getSize()/foo.setSize() or List<T> instead of
> ArrayList... those differences are minor and will not
> cause significant issues for groking cross-language examples. People will
> still get it... and .Net developers will be much happier.
>
>
> So, take away is:
> - My team and I will help hack on Lucene.Net and get paid to do it
> - Lucene.Net should not change project status
> - Microsoft should implement IronJava
> - Moving towards idiomatic .Net code is the direction the project should go
> and is not that big of a deal
>
>
> Also, as a side-note. We're hiring in the Portland, Oregon area, and could
> use developers who know Lucene.Net, and want to hack on it on the clock.
> Send me your resume.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Troy Howard
> Director of Software Development | discover-e Legal, LLC |
> thoward37@gmail.com
>

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