Return-Path: X-Original-To: archive-asf-public-internal@cust-asf2.ponee.io Delivered-To: archive-asf-public-internal@cust-asf2.ponee.io Received: from cust-asf.ponee.io (cust-asf.ponee.io [163.172.22.183]) by cust-asf2.ponee.io (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE3CD200C59 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 00:32:07 +0100 (CET) Received: by cust-asf.ponee.io (Postfix) id AC01A160B77; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 23:32:07 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: archive-asf-public@cust-asf.ponee.io Received: from mail.apache.org (hermes.apache.org [140.211.11.3]) by cust-asf.ponee.io (Postfix) with SMTP id 5CD62160B87 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 00:32:06 +0100 (CET) Received: (qmail 74760 invoked by uid 500); 12 Mar 2017 23:32:05 -0000 Mailing-List: contact log4php-dev-help@logging.apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk list-help: list-unsubscribe: List-Post: Reply-To: "Log4PHP Dev" List-Id: Delivered-To: mailing list log4php-dev@logging.apache.org Received: (qmail 74317 invoked by uid 99); 12 Mar 2017 23:32:05 -0000 Received: from pnap-us-west-generic-nat.apache.org (HELO spamd2-us-west.apache.org) (209.188.14.142) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 23:32:05 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spamd2-us-west.apache.org (ASF Mail Server at spamd2-us-west.apache.org) with ESMTP id BE7A21A07F1; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 23:32:04 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at spamd2-us-west.apache.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.879 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.879 tagged_above=-999 required=6.31 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=2, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=disabled Authentication-Results: spamd2-us-west.apache.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mx1-lw-us.apache.org ([10.40.0.8]) by localhost (spamd2-us-west.apache.org [10.40.0.9]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ir2vL8ydszTF; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 23:32:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-lf0-f43.google.com (mail-lf0-f43.google.com [209.85.215.43]) by mx1-lw-us.apache.org (ASF Mail Server at mx1-lw-us.apache.org) with ESMTPS id 42A965FC63; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 23:32:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-lf0-f43.google.com with SMTP id y193so57463093lfd.3; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 16:32:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=wCGl5hmgBbU11BLWsf0rtG+se87Dd473CL7FjJ6YpHc=; b=iZV4sbjPJrd7ZW4DlOvd/NMVsTo4GJDnelsYagSkRc9t1eFatVkxNWjyw6ZbLiuEBJ PqQ+M0xFpP8irYwv4I5cR/hBywLxhgqFDgZnt+m7/He0Ba0fWOPTJJ2O3wbf6Nwem9GI FPSPp1o1kXE7Jslay69IiTdSruAtds0ekrdGJLtUjknLVqbxDT7QP8MLNQe1PI0kbyHb 40GHZBgDSDTSztbqbqAJcucO/3eQ7bLciiZUAS+UgI0QATAxyUvrsjYoNLyvQV3rp3hV eQhU085yMD3aoJHqbzBbFbT/hy6gcwppgf4OmByUUK55aOR4GagJWwPXrxaUr+8JnfSp eYgA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=wCGl5hmgBbU11BLWsf0rtG+se87Dd473CL7FjJ6YpHc=; b=B+439yniWDqX98D4SwNK6ocrAioPeoXIPdsBMX6s8UNnUs5PAcDM7lkNgPJlj0b6H/ bM9V9SotI+B0EdyxM0itY2DTDEhdPTDDRND/fGqSYORBsqnZ3CUUlTJq95yue+Uy8T0r bB6ICVnLHsxJUMWIvw7iLp0LBS5rcyUYOOcgwzseqkhxdKd+BsMYHTsb24uI8DfRGk67 xmtoP0ov+9oyB2ZpaBYRhmLX30dTSv3MvcaaWIPVIsIlJGJvVXUIOlxMtGLfHrNpZ/mf 1GyWkECtR0/x94YixTSlEZ+0hvCNTi4o+XqtS3uAjSbfo8+HKiQbBUhyAqQxvFFm5Ido pjsg== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39lHmQ+9HIqQsvKIenopfjRKH4F34qGI6UH7ZkVqI+F83eryKfjBnPcQmgbNdVjKVpTLBwuzjf3JsdwOZQ== X-Received: by 10.25.203.72 with SMTP id b69mr7701033lfg.103.1489361513694; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 16:31:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.158.76 with HTTP; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 16:31:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <621E98A2-C2B6-4FE8-83B0-4F4B1F144F8F@dslextreme.com> References: <60ae0fb4-16d7-d59a-519e-0664a9cac77f@gmail.com> <3406CF90-67D2-4743-9077-F91F05564F95@dslextreme.com> <621E98A2-C2B6-4FE8-83B0-4F4B1F144F8F@dslextreme.com> From: Matt Sicker Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 18:31:52 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@ To: Log4CXX Dev Cc: Log4NET Dev , Log4J Developers List , log4php-dev@logging.apache.org, Logging PMC Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c1a1ce4f74de3054a90fff4 archived-at: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 23:32:07 -0000 --94eb2c1a1ce4f74de3054a90fff4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651 On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers wrote: > Yes, > > If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it. > > Ralph > > On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker wrote: > > The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and > discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the > user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now? > > On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner wrote: > >> Total agreement. >> >> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" >> wrote: >> >>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses >>> dropped the other lists. This is a horrible way to have discussions th= at >>> affect all the sub projects. >>> >>> Ralph >>> >>> >>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker wrote: >>> >>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gar= y >>> mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for = his >>> use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects. >>> >>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) >>> aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures = and >>> plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive >>> conversations about this would be great. >>> >>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael St=C3=A5ldal >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the >>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the >>>> subprojects. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects >>>>> to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a ve= ry >>>>> similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Lo= gging >>>>> specification and several Apache Logging specification implementation= s in >>>>> the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for a= ll >>>>> subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge = the >>>>> dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should n= ot >>>>> apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very lo= w >>>>> traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last= few >>>>> messages of two user mailing lists I follow: >>>>> >>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that >>>>> about two weeks ago >>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic befor= e >>>>> that a month ago >>>>> >>>>> Cheers >>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote: >>>>> >>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might b= e >>>>> of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are jus= t >>>>> release announcements. >>>>> >>>>> Ralph >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't >>>>> cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should m= erge >>>>> the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs = to >>>>> subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know >>>>> what that list is for). >>>>> >>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are >>>>>> =E2=80=9Cbinding=E2=80=9D. I don=E2=80=99t think that changes much h= owever. >>>>>> >>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user=E2=80=99s= lists >>>>>> separate isn=E2=80=99t likely to be an issue as most of the things t= hat would need >>>>>> to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ralph >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so >>>>>> that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to sum= marize >>>>>> the current state of the vote: >>>>>> >>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.= apache.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1 >>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1 >>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1 >>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1 >>>>>> Thorsten Sch=C3=B6ning: -0 >>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0 >>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1 >>>>>> Remko Popma: +1 >>>>>> Mikael St=C3=A5ldal: +0 >>>>>> >>>>>> Totals so far: >>>>>> +1: 5 >>>>>> +0: 1 >>>>>> -0: 2 >>>>>> -1: 1 >>>>>> >>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -= > user@logging.apache.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1 >>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1 >>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1 >>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1 >>>>>> Thorsten Sch=C3=B6ning: -0 >>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0 >>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1 >>>>>> Remko Popma: +1 >>>>>> Mikael St=C3=A5ldal: -1 >>>>>> >>>>>> Totals so far: >>>>>> +1: 3 >>>>>> +0: 0 >>>>>> -0: 2 >>>>>> -1: 4 >>>>>> >>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to >>>>>> half of them less than five minutes ago. >>>>>> >>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing >>>>>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows: >>>>>> >>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> >>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org >>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -= > >>>>>> user@logging.apache.org >>>>>> >>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before. >>>>>> >>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases >>>>>> for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To >>>>>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as: >>>>>> >>>>>> [java] >>>>>> [net] >>>>>> [cxx] >>>>>> [php] >>>>>> >>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should hel= p >>>>>> in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience. >>>>>> >>>>>> Voting: >>>>>> >>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists! >>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much. >>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it. >>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea! >>>>>> >>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, >>>>>> no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will= be >>>>>> open for at least 72 hours. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Matt Sicker >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Matt Sicker >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> [image: MagineTV] >>>> >>>> *Mikael St=C3=A5ldal* >>>> Senior software developer >>>> >>>> *Magine TV* >>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com >>>> Grev Turegatan 3 | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden | www.magine.com >>>> >>>> >>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this >>>> message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message >>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may >>>> not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, >>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply >>>> email. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Matt Sicker >>> >>> >>> > > > -- > Matt Sicker > > > --=20 Matt Sicker --94eb2c1a1ce4f74de3054a90fff4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On 12= March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com= > wrote:
Yes,

If you could send the requ= est to infra I would appreciate it.

Ralph

On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM= , Matt Sicker <boa= rds@gmail.com> wrote:

The vote has been open for 5 days = now. Based on the tallies and discussions, it sounds like we'd like to = merge the dev lists but keep the user lists as is. Shall we move forward wi= th combining them now?

On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <= ;dpsenner@gmail.com= > wrote:
= Total agreement.

On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.goers@dslextrem= e.com> wrote:
This is exactly why we need one d= ev list. These last two responses dropped the other lists.=C2=A0 This is a = horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.

Ralph


On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com> wrote:

I'd love to see more unified conf= igurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4c= xx as that would make it useful for his use case where they're using bo= th Java and C++ in various projects.

While the programmi= ng languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't really compa= tible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems coul= d help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this= would be great.

On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael St=C3=A5ldal<mikael.staldal@magine.com>=C2=A0wrote:
I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages = we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.

On F= ri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner=C2= =A0<dpsenner@gmail.com>=C2= =A0wrote:

We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging pr= ojects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a v= ery similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logg= ing specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations = in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all = subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the de= v mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not a= pply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traff= ic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messag= es of two user mailing lists I follow:

log4j-user: the last topic= came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
log4net-u= ser: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a month = ago

Cheers

On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goer= s wrote:
We use general as mainly a= n announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all log= ging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.
<= br>
Ralph

On Mar 9, = 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com> wrote:

Yeah, I = agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any i= ssues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev list= s into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (g= eneral@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list = is for).

On = 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers=C2=A0<ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>=C2=A0wrote:
You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes a= re =E2=80=9Cbinding=E2=80=9D. I don=E2=80=99t think that changes much howev= er.

From a PMC perspective I have to say that keep= ing the user=E2=80=99s lists separate isn=E2=80=99t likely to be an issue a= s most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list= anyway.

Ralph

On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com> wrote:

The votes are = way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't eve= n find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current s= tate of the vote:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-d=
ev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org

Matt Sicker: +1
Ralph Goers: +1=
Stefan Bodewig: +1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Sch=C3=B6ning: -0=
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael St= =C3=A5ldal: +0

Totals so far:
+1: 5
+0: 1
-0: 2
-1: 1

= 
log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -&g=
t; =
user@logging.apache.org

Matt Sicker: -1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: -1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Sch=C3=B6ning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael St=C3=A5ldal: -1

Totals so far:
+1: 3
+0: 0
-0: 2
-1: 4
Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.

On 2017-03-0= 8 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to h= alf of them less than five minutes ago.

This is a vote t= o merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is = to combine them as follows:

log4j-dev@, log4php-de= v@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->=C2=A0<= a href=3D"mailto:dev@logging.apache.org" target=3D"_blank">dev@logging.apac= he.org
log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-use= r@, general@ ->=C2=A0user@logging.apache.org
=

commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
<= div>
The proposal would also suggest that the old emails beco= me aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails= . To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:

[java]
[net]
[cxx]
[php]=

Though I wouldn't think such a tag is require= d, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audien= ce.

Voting:

+1: Yes, comb= ine the mailing lists!
+0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
-0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
-1: No, don= 9;t do that! I have a better idea!

This vote follo= ws the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes= ) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at lea= st 72 hours.

--=C2= =A0
Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>

=



--=C2=A0<= br>
Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>





--=C2=A0=
3D"MagineTV"=C2=A0

Mikael St=C3=A5ldal
Senior software d= eveloper=C2=A0

Magine TV
mikael.staldal@magine.com=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
Grev Turegatan 3 =C2=A0|=C2=A0114 46 = Stockholm, Sweden=C2=A0=C2=A0|=C2=A0=C2=A0<= span class=3D"m_911230524369347603m_1692403371272423231m_394273147687697181= 7Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0www.magine.com=C2=A0

Privileged and/or Confide= ntial Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addr= essee indicated in this message
(or responsible for delivery of the mess= age to such a person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. = In such case,=C2=A0
you should destroy this message and kindly notify th= e sender by reply email. =C2=A0=C2=A0



--=C2=A0
Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
=




--
=
Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>




--
Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
--94eb2c1a1ce4f74de3054a90fff4--