Return-Path: X-Original-To: archive-asf-public-internal@cust-asf2.ponee.io Delivered-To: archive-asf-public-internal@cust-asf2.ponee.io Received: from cust-asf.ponee.io (cust-asf.ponee.io [163.172.22.183]) by cust-asf2.ponee.io (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5003A200C59 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 05:30:40 +0100 (CET) Received: by cust-asf.ponee.io (Postfix) id 4CFC6160B77; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 04:30:40 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: archive-asf-public@cust-asf.ponee.io Received: from mail.apache.org (hermes.apache.org [140.211.11.3]) by cust-asf.ponee.io (Postfix) with SMTP id CF8DB160B87 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 05:30:38 +0100 (CET) Received: (qmail 74655 invoked by uid 500); 13 Mar 2017 04:30:37 -0000 Mailing-List: contact log4php-dev-help@logging.apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk list-help: list-unsubscribe: List-Post: Reply-To: "Log4PHP Dev" List-Id: Delivered-To: mailing list log4php-dev@logging.apache.org Received: (qmail 74608 invoked by uid 99); 13 Mar 2017 04:30:37 -0000 Received: from pnap-us-west-generic-nat.apache.org (HELO spamd3-us-west.apache.org) (209.188.14.142) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 04:30:37 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spamd3-us-west.apache.org (ASF Mail Server at spamd3-us-west.apache.org) with ESMTP id C2801182319; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 04:30:36 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at spamd3-us-west.apache.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.8 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.8 tagged_above=-999 required=6.31 tests=[HTML_MESSAGE=2, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5] autolearn=disabled Received: from mx1-lw-us.apache.org ([10.40.0.8]) by localhost (spamd3-us-west.apache.org [10.40.0.10]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6jihzWnGyWPv; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 04:30:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp687.redcondor.net (smtp687.redcondor.net [208.80.206.87]) by mx1-lw-us.apache.org (ASF Mail Server at mx1-lw-us.apache.org) with ESMTPS id 913FA5F295; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 04:30:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mailproxy12.neonova.net ([137.118.22.77]) by smtp687.redcondor.net ({f50aeeea-7a14-4dd3-bdda-1246754c15b3}) via TCP (outbound) with ESMTP id 20170313043020285_0687; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 04:30:20 +0000 X-RC-FROM: Received: from [192.168.1.12] (ip72-201-73-113.ph.ph.cox.net [72.201.73.113]) (Authenticated sender: ralph.goers@dslextreme.com) by mailproxy12.neonova.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 0C925360114; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 00:30:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Ralph Goers Message-Id: <5C3289A8-CDCA-4B29-B4AD-6BD7F56D4ABD@dslextreme.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_ADCEFB1D-DD7C-452A-9F38-405E5787C841" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Subject: Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@ Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 21:30:10 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Log4CXX Dev , Log4NET Dev , Log4J Developers List , log4php-dev@logging.apache.org To: Logging PMC References: <60ae0fb4-16d7-d59a-519e-0664a9cac77f@gmail.com> <3406CF90-67D2-4743-9077-F91F05564F95@dslextreme.com> <621E98A2-C2B6-4FE8-83B0-4F4B1F144F8F@dslextreme.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) X-DLP-OUTBOUND: 137.118.22.64/27 X-MAG-OUTBOUND: greymail.redcondor.net@137.118.22.64/27 archived-at: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 04:30:40 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_ADCEFB1D-DD7C-452A-9F38-405E5787C841 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 1. That seems fine to me. 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but = still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add = [list] to the start of the subject line. 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen. Ralph > On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker wrote: >=20 > Some things: >=20 > 1. Archives won't be merged. > 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email = addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved = over to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer. > 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically = subscribed to the combined list. >=20 > So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform = senders to use the new list? >=20 > On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker > wrote: > Created a request, not sure if it's public: = https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651 = = >=20 > On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers > wrote: > Yes, >=20 > If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it. >=20 > Ralph >=20 >> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker > wrote: >>=20 >> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and = discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep = the user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now? >>=20 >> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner > wrote: >> Total agreement. >>=20 >> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" > wrote: >> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses = dropped the other lists. This is a horrible way to have discussions = that affect all the sub projects. >>=20 >> Ralph >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker > wrote: >>>=20 >>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. = Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful = for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various = projects. >>>=20 >>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and = C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar = architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having = more inclusive conversations about this would be great. >>>=20 >>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael St=C3=A5ldal = > wrote: >>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the = languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the = subprojects. >>>=20 >>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner = > wrote: >>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging = projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same = or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one = Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification = implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means = all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good = reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same = use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing = lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just = quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow: >>>=20 >>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that = about two weeks ago >>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic = before that a month ago >>>=20 >>> Cheers >>>=20 >>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote: >>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might = be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are = just release announcements. >>>>=20 >>>> Ralph >>>>=20 >>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker > wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it = doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we = should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for = all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I = don't know what that list is for). >>>>>=20 >>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers > wrote: >>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes = are =E2=80=9Cbinding=E2=80=9D. I don=E2=80=99t think that changes much = however. >>>>>=20 >>>>> =46rom a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user=E2=80=99= s lists separate isn=E2=80=99t likely to be an issue as most of the = things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Ralph >>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner > wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists = so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to = summarize the current state of the vote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> = dev@logging.apache.org >>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1 >>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1 >>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1 >>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1 >>>>>> Thorsten Sch=C3=B6ning: -0 >>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0 >>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1 >>>>>> Remko Popma: +1 >>>>>> Mikael St=C3=A5ldal: +0 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Totals so far: >>>>>> +1: 5 >>>>>> +0: 1 >>>>>> -0: 2 >>>>>> -1: 1 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, = general@ -> user@logging.apache.org >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1 >>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1 >>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1 >>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1 >>>>>> Thorsten Sch=C3=B6ning: -0 >>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0 >>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1 >>>>>> Remko Popma: +1 >>>>>> Mikael St=C3=A5ldal: -1 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Totals so far: >>>>>> +1: 3 >>>>>> +0: 0 >>>>>> -0: 2 >>>>>> -1: 4 >>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote: >>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just = subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services = mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> = dev@logging.apache.org >>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, = general@ -> user@logging.apache.org >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become = aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future = emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such = as: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> [java] >>>>>>> [net] >>>>>>> [cxx] >>>>>>> [php] >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should = help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Voting: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists! >>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much. >>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it. >>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea! >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 = binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote = will be open for at least 72 hours. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> --=20 >>>>>>> Matt Sicker > >>>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> --=20 >>>>> Matt Sicker > >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> Mikael St=C3=A5ldal >>> Senior software developer=20 >>>=20 >>> Magine TV >>> mikael.staldal@magine.com =20 >>> Grev Turegatan 3 | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden | www.magine.com=C2=A0= >>>=20 >>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this = message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message >>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you = may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,=20 >>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by = reply email. =20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> Matt Sicker > >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >> Matt Sicker > >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Matt Sicker > >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Matt Sicker > --Apple-Mail=_ADCEFB1D-DD7C-452A-9F38-405E5787C841 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
1. That seems fine to me.
2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the = sender but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it = could even add [list] to the start of the subject line.
3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.

Ralph



On = Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com> = wrote:

Some things:

1. Archives won't be merged.
2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old = email addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have = moved over to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we = prefer.
3. Current subscribers from all dev lists = would be automatically subscribed to the combined list.

So, use aliases or have = the old addresses bounce back and inform senders to use the new = list?

On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com> wrote:
Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651

On = 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com> wrote:
Yes,

If you could send the = request to infra I would appreciate it.

Ralph

On Mar = 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com> wrote:

The vote has been open = for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and discussions, it sounds like = we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the user lists as is. Shall we = move forward with combining them now?

On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik = Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com> wrote:
Total agreement.

On 10 = Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com> wrote:
This is exactly why we need one dev list. = These last two responses dropped the other lists.  This is a = horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub = projects.

Ralph


On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com> wrote:

I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the = subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would = make it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in = various projects.

While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, = and C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar = architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having = more inclusive conversations about this would be great.
On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, = Mikael St=C3=A5ldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com> wrote:
I think that = a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we support, = and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.

On Fri, = Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com> wrote:

We had once the discussion that we wanted all = Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting = with the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim = towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging = specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. = That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me = this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't = see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, = too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a = larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing = lists I follow:

log4j-user: the last = topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the = topic before that a month ago

Cheers

On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
We = use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of = general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just = release announcements.

Ralph

On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, = Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com> wrote:

Yeah, I agree = that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues = currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists = into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to = (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is = for).

On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com> wrote:
You should note that while we consider all = votes only PMC votes are =E2=80=9Cbinding=E2=80=9D. I don=E2=80=99t = think that changes much however.

=46rom a PMC perspective I have to say = that keeping the user=E2=80=99s lists separate isn=E2=80=99t likely to = be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would = be on a dev list anyway.

Ralph

On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com> wrote:

The votes = are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't = even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current = state of the vote:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, =
log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org

Matt = Sicker: +1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: = +1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Sch=C3=B6ning:= -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael St=C3=A5ldal: +0

Totals so far:
+1: 5
+0: 1
-0: 2
-1: 1

log4j-user@, =
log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org

Matt Sicker: -1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: -1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Sch=C3=B6ning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael St=C3=A5ldal: -1

Totals so far:
+1: 3
+0: 0
-0: 2
-1: 4
Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.

On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just = subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.

This is a vote to merge the various = Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them = as follows:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ = -> dev@logging.apache.org
log4j-user@, = log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org

commits@ and private@ remain the same = as before.

The = proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the = combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish = between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:

[java]
[net]
[cxx]
[php]

Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it = should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate = audience.

Voting:

+1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
+0: = Go ahead, don't care that much.
-0: Don't like it, = but not vetoing it.
-1: No, don't do that! I have a = better idea!

This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 = binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote = will be open for at least 72 hours.

-- 
Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>





-- 
Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>




-- 
3D"MagineTV" 

Mikael St=C3=A5ldal
Senior software developer 

Magine TV
mikael.staldal@magine.com    
Grev = Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com 

Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained = in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this = message
(or responsible for delivery of the message to = such a person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In = such case, 
you should destroy this message and = kindly notify the sender by reply email. =   



-- 
Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>



--
Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>




--
Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>


--
Matt Sicker = <boards@gmail.com>

= --Apple-Mail=_ADCEFB1D-DD7C-452A-9F38-405E5787C841--