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From Paul Benedict <pbened...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@
Date Tue, 28 Mar 2017 19:18:34 GMT
Yes, I think combining the "user@" and "dev@" variants into two are
appropriate. +1 (non-binding) for me.

Furthermore --- and this has always been a scratch of mine to itch (and I
raise this about once a year!) -- I would like a dedicated "issues@"
mailing list like other Apache projects. The traditional answer back to me
is "I setup filters for this so you can too" but I would just prefer the
separation. The separation also makes it easier to browse the "dev@"
archives. So for 2017, what do you guys say? Can we finally get that going
this time around?

Cheers,
Paul

On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 8:21 PM, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>
wrote:

> Matt,
>
> Any update on this?
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:27 AM, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>
> wrote:
>
> Thanks Matt!
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> No other opinions apparently. I suppose we'll go with the single list with
> bounce messages. I'll follow up with infra later today.
>
> On 18 March 2017 at 13:12, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
>> OK. I guess I am fine with the bounce messages. Any other opinions?
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I got this response from Gavin:
>>
>> Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.
>>
>> Merging the lists - no problem
>> Merging all the subscribers - no problem
>> Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list -
>> no problem
>>
>> People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if
>> they forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the
>> hint.
>>
>> If you are :-
>>
>> a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users
>> know this is happening and the date then let me know.
>> b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate
>> further.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me
>>> follow up with infra.
>>>
>>> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is there any follow-up to this?
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 1. That seems fine to me.
>>>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender
>>>> but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add
>>>> [list] to the start of the subject line.
>>>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Some things:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>>>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email
>>>> addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over
>>>> to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>>>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically
>>>> subscribed to the combined list.
>>>>
>>>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform
>>>> senders to use the new list?
>>>>
>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.
>>>>> org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
>>>>>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but
keep the
>>>>>> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two
responses
>>>>>>>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have
discussions that
>>>>>>>> affect all the sub projects.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects.
>>>>>>>> Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would
make it useful for
>>>>>>>> his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various
projects.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET,
PHP, and
>>>>>>>> C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar
architectures
>>>>>>>> and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having
more inclusive
>>>>>>>> conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine
>>>>>>>> .com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one
of the
>>>>>>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested
in one of the
>>>>>>>>> subprojects.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <
>>>>>>>>> dpsenner@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache
Logging
>>>>>>>>>> projects to become very similar in their usage, starting
with the same or a
>>>>>>>>>> very similar configuration. Given that we should
aim towards one Apache
>>>>>>>>>> Logging specification and several Apache Logging
specification
>>>>>>>>>> implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects.
That means all
>>>>>>>>>> the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To
me this is a good
>>>>>>>>>> reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I
don't see why the same
>>>>>>>>>> use case should not apply to the user mailing lists,
too. Those mailing
>>>>>>>>>> lists see very low traffic but all of them need a
larger audience. Just
>>>>>>>>>> quoting the last few messages of two user mailing
lists I follow:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the
topic before
>>>>>>>>>> that about two weeks ago
>>>>>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago
and the topic
>>>>>>>>>> before that a month ago
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for
topics that
>>>>>>>>>> might be of general interest to all logging projects.
Generally, these are
>>>>>>>>>> just release announcements.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate
as it
>>>>>>>>>> doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea
here is whether we should
>>>>>>>>>> merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common
dev list for all devs
>>>>>>>>>> to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate,
but I don't
>>>>>>>>>> know what that list is for).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com
>>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes
only PMC votes
>>>>>>>>>>> are “binding”. I don’t think that changes
much however.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping
the user’s
>>>>>>>>>>> lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue
as most of the things that would
>>>>>>>>>>> need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different
mailing lists
>>>>>>>>>>> so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore
I'm trying to
>>>>>>>>>>> summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@
-> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@,
general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering
I just
>>>>>>>>>>> subscribed to half of them less than five minutes
ago.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging
Services
>>>>>>>>>>> mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them
as follows:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@
->
>>>>>>>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@,
>>>>>>>>>>> general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old
emails become
>>>>>>>>>>> aliases for the combined email names so as not
to lose any future emails.
>>>>>>>>>>> To distinguish between projects, a subject tag
can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required,
though it should
>>>>>>>>>>> help in gaining the attention of the appropriate
audience.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at
least 3 +1
>>>>>>>>>>> binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases
and whatnot. The vote
>>>>>>>>>>> will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>>>>>>>> Senior software developer
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Magine TV*
>>>>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>>>>>>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained
in
>>>>>>>>> this message. If you are not the addressee indicated
in this message
>>>>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a
person), you
>>>>>>>>> may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such
case,
>>>>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the
sender by
>>>>>>>>> reply email.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Cheers,
Paul

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