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From Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@
Date Sat, 18 Mar 2017 15:42:53 GMT
I got this response from Gavin:

Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.

Merging the lists - no problem
Merging all the subscribers - no problem
Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list -
no problem

People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if they
forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the hint.

If you are :-

a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users
know this is happening and the date then let me know.
b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate further.

Thanks

On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com> wrote:

> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me follow
> up with infra.
>
> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
>> Is there any follow-up to this?
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> 1. That seems fine to me.
>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but
>> still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add
>> [list] to the start of the subject line.
>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Some things:
>>
>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email
>> addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over
>> to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically
>> subscribed to the combined list.
>>
>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders
>> to use the new list?
>>
>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.
>>> org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651
>>>
>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes,
>>>>
>>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
>>>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
>>>> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>>
>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>>>>>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions
that
>>>>>> affect all the sub projects.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects.
>>>>>> Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it
useful for
>>>>>> his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and
>>>>>> C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures
>>>>>> and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>>>>>> conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com>
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the
>>>>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one
of the
>>>>>>> subprojects.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <
>>>>>>> dpsenner@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging
>>>>>>>> projects to become very similar in their usage, starting
with the same or a
>>>>>>>> very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards
one Apache
>>>>>>>> Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification
>>>>>>>> implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects.
That means all
>>>>>>>> the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this
is a good
>>>>>>>> reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see
why the same
>>>>>>>> use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too.
Those mailing
>>>>>>>> lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger
audience. Just
>>>>>>>> quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I
follow:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic
before
>>>>>>>> that about two weeks ago
>>>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the
topic
>>>>>>>> before that a month ago
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics
that might
>>>>>>>> be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally,
these are just
>>>>>>>> release announcements.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as
it doesn't
>>>>>>>> cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether
we should merge
>>>>>>>> the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for
all devs to
>>>>>>>> subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't
know
>>>>>>>> what that list is for).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only
PMC votes
>>>>>>>>> are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much
however.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the
user’s lists
>>>>>>>>> separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the
things that would need
>>>>>>>>> to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing
lists
>>>>>>>>> so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore
I'm trying to
>>>>>>>>> summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@
-> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@,
general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just
subscribed
>>>>>>>>> to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services
>>>>>>>>> mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@
->
>>>>>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@,
general@
>>>>>>>>> -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become
aliases
>>>>>>>>> for the combined email names so as not to lose any future
emails. To
>>>>>>>>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added
such as:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though
it should
>>>>>>>>> help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least
3 +1
>>>>>>>>> binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and
whatnot. The vote
>>>>>>>>> will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>>>>>> Senior software developer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Magine TV*
>>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>>>>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in
this
>>>>>>> message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
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you
>>>>>>> may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender
by
>>>>>>> reply email.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
>



-- 
Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>

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