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From Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@
Date Tue, 28 Mar 2017 19:49:27 GMT
We should start a new vote for issues@. We've already voted to merge dev@
and keep the user lists as is.

On 28 March 2017 at 14:18, Paul Benedict <pbenedict@apache.org> wrote:

> Yes, I think combining the "user@" and "dev@" variants into two are
> appropriate. +1 (non-binding) for me.
>
> Furthermore --- and this has always been a scratch of mine to itch (and I
> raise this about once a year!) -- I would like a dedicated "issues@"
> mailing list like other Apache projects. The traditional answer back to me
> is "I setup filters for this so you can too" but I would just prefer the
> separation. The separation also makes it easier to browse the "dev@"
> archives. So for 2017, what do you guys say? Can we finally get that going
> this time around?
>
> Cheers,
> Paul
>
> On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 8:21 PM, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Matt,
>>
>> Any update on this?
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:27 AM, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Matt!
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> No other opinions apparently. I suppose we'll go with the single list
>> with bounce messages. I'll follow up with infra later today.
>>
>> On 18 March 2017 at 13:12, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> OK. I guess I am fine with the bounce messages. Any other opinions?
>>>
>>> Ralph
>>>
>>> On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I got this response from Gavin:
>>>
>>> Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.
>>>
>>> Merging the lists - no problem
>>> Merging all the subscribers - no problem
>>> Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list
>>> - no problem
>>>
>>> People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if
>>> they forget I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the
>>> hint.
>>>
>>> If you are :-
>>>
>>> a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users
>>> know this is happening and the date then let me know.
>>> b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate
>>> further.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me
>>>> follow up with infra.
>>>>
>>>> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Is there any follow-up to this?
>>>>>
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. That seems fine to me.
>>>>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender
>>>>> but still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even
add
>>>>> [list] to the start of the subject line.
>>>>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Some things:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>>>>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email
>>>>> addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved
over
>>>>> to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>>>>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically
>>>>> subscribed to the combined list.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform
>>>>> senders to use the new list?
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.
>>>>>> org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
>>>>>>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists
but keep the
>>>>>>> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last
two responses
>>>>>>>>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have
discussions that
>>>>>>>>> affect all the sub projects.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the
>>>>>>>>> subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx
as that would make
>>>>>>>>> it useful for his use case where they're using both Java
and C++ in various
>>>>>>>>> projects.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET,
PHP, and
>>>>>>>>> C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having
similar architectures
>>>>>>>>> and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having
more inclusive
>>>>>>>>> conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine
>>>>>>>>> .com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses
one of the
>>>>>>>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested
in one of the
>>>>>>>>>> subprojects.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner
<
>>>>>>>>>> dpsenner@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all
Apache Logging
>>>>>>>>>>> projects to become very similar in their usage,
starting with the same or a
>>>>>>>>>>> very similar configuration. Given that we should
aim towards one Apache
>>>>>>>>>>> Logging specification and several Apache Logging
specification
>>>>>>>>>>> implementations in the form of Apache Logging
subprojects. That means all
>>>>>>>>>>> the devs for all subprojects have to talk more.
To me this is a good
>>>>>>>>>>> reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further
I don't see why the same
>>>>>>>>>>> use case should not apply to the user mailing
lists, too. Those mailing
>>>>>>>>>>> lists see very low traffic but all of them need
a larger audience. Just
>>>>>>>>>>> quoting the last few messages of two user mailing
lists I follow:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago,
the topic before
>>>>>>>>>>> that about two weeks ago
>>>>>>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours
ago and the topic
>>>>>>>>>>> before that a month ago
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list
for topics that
>>>>>>>>>>> might be of general interest to all logging projects.
Generally, these are
>>>>>>>>>>> just release announcements.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain
separate as it
>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't cause any issues currently. The main
idea here is whether we should
>>>>>>>>>>> merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a
common dev list for all devs
>>>>>>>>>>> to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate,
but I
>>>>>>>>>>> don't know what that list is for).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.
>>>>>>>>>>> com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all
votes only PMC votes
>>>>>>>>>>>> are “binding”. I don’t think that changes
much however.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that
keeping the user’s
>>>>>>>>>>>> lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue
as most of the things that would
>>>>>>>>>>>> need to be discussed would be on a dev list
anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner
<dpsenner@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the
different mailing
>>>>>>>>>>>> lists so that I didn't even find my own vote.
;-) Therefore I'm trying to
>>>>>>>>>>>> summarize the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@
-> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@,
log4cxx-user@, general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering
I just
>>>>>>>>>>>> subscribed to half of them less than five
minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache
Logging Services
>>>>>>>>>>>> mailing lists. The proposal is to combine
them as follows:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@
->
>>>>>>>>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@,
log4cxx-user@,
>>>>>>>>>>>> general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as
before.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the
old emails become
>>>>>>>>>>>> aliases for the combined email names so as
not to lose any future emails.
>>>>>>>>>>>> To distinguish between projects, a subject
tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required,
though it
>>>>>>>>>>>> should help in gaining the attention of the
appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus"
(at least 3 +1
>>>>>>>>>>>> binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general
releases and whatnot. The vote
>>>>>>>>>>>> will be open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>>>>>>>>> Senior software developer
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Magine TV*
>>>>>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>>>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  | 
 www.magine.com
>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be
contained in
>>>>>>>>>> this message. If you are not the addressee indicated
in this message
>>>>>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such
a person),
>>>>>>>>>> you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone.
In such case,
>>>>>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify
the sender by
>>>>>>>>>> reply email.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Paul
>



-- 
Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>

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