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From Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@
Date Fri, 17 Mar 2017 03:23:45 GMT
Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me follow
up with infra.

On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> Is there any follow-up to this?
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>
> wrote:
>
> 1. That seems fine to me.
> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but
> still allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add
> [list] to the start of the subject line.
> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>
> Ralph
>
>
>
> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Some things:
>
> 1. Archives won't be merged.
> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email
> addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over
> to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically
> subscribed to the combined list.
>
> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders
> to use the new list?
>
> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.
>> org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651
>>
>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes,
>>>
>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>
>>> Ralph
>>>
>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and
>>> discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the
>>> user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?
>>>
>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>
>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses
>>>>> dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions
that
>>>>> affect all the sub projects.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects.
>>>>> Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful
for
>>>>> his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>>
>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++)
>>>>> aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures
and
>>>>> plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive
>>>>> conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the
>>>>>> languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of
the
>>>>>> subprojects.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging
>>>>>>> projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with
the same or a
>>>>>>> very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards
one Apache
>>>>>>> Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification
>>>>>>> implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That
means all
>>>>>>> the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is
a good
>>>>>>> reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why
the same
>>>>>>> use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those
mailing
>>>>>>> lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience.
Just
>>>>>>> quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before
that
>>>>>>> about two weeks ago
>>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic
>>>>>>> before that a month ago
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that
might
>>>>>>> be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these
are just
>>>>>>> release announcements.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't
>>>>>>> cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we
should merge
>>>>>>> the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all
devs to
>>>>>>> subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't
know
>>>>>>> what that list is for).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC
votes are
>>>>>>>> “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s
lists
>>>>>>>> separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things
that would need
>>>>>>>> to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing
lists so
>>>>>>>> that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying
to summarize
>>>>>>>> the current state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@,
general@ -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed
>>>>>>>> to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services
mailing
>>>>>>>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>>>>>>> dev@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@,
general@
>>>>>>>> -> user@logging.apache.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become
aliases
>>>>>>>> for the combined email names so as not to lose any future
emails. To
>>>>>>>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added
such as:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it
should
>>>>>>>> help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1
binding,
>>>>>>>> no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The
vote will be
>>>>>>>> open for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> [image: MagineTV]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Mikael Ståldal*
>>>>>> Senior software developer
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Magine TV*
>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com
>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com
>>>>>> <http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this
>>>>>> message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you
>>>>>> may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case,
>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply
>>>>>> email.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com>

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