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From Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com>
Subject Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@
Date Tue, 21 Mar 2017 17:27:56 GMT
Thanks Matt!

Ralph

> On Mar 21, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> No other opinions apparently. I suppose we'll go with the single list with bounce messages.
I'll follow up with infra later today.
> 
> On 18 March 2017 at 13:12, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <mailto:ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>>
wrote:
> OK. I guess I am fine with the bounce messages. Any other opinions?
> 
> Ralph
> 
>> On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <mailto:boards@gmail.com>>
wrote:
>> 
>> I got this response from Gavin:
>> 
>> Hi [~jvz] Sorry but I think I'm going to push back on that last request.
>> 
>> Merging the lists - no problem
>> Merging all the subscribers - no problem
>> Creating bounce messages directing people to use the merged target list - no problem
>> 
>> People will know in advance this merger is going to take place, and if they forget
I think it'll take only one or two bounce messages to get the hint.
>> 
>> If you are :-
>> 
>> a) Happy with that - pick a date this can be done , let all lists users know this
is happening and the date then let me know.
>> b) Not Happy with that - ping this ticket again and we'll escalate further.
>> 
>> Thanks
>> 
>> On 16 March 2017 at 22:23, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <mailto:boards@gmail.com>>
wrote:
>> Oh, I didn't realise I had a response on how to handle that. Let me follow up with
infra.
>> 
>> On 16 March 2017 at 21:46, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <mailto:ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>>
wrote:
>> Is there any follow-up to this?  
>> 
>> Ralph
>> 
>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <mailto:ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>>
wrote:
>>> 
>>> 1. That seems fine to me.
>>> 2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but still
allowing the email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add [list] to the start of the
subject line.
>>> 3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.
>>> 
>>> Ralph
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <mailto:boards@gmail.com>>
wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Some things:
>>>> 
>>>> 1. Archives won't be merged.
>>>> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email addresses
respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over to dev@, though they can
set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
>>>> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically subscribed
to the combined list.
>>>> 
>>>> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders
to use the new list?
>>>> 
>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <mailto:boards@gmail.com>>
wrote:
>>>> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651
<https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651>
>>>> 
>>>> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <mailto:ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>>
wrote:
>>>> Yes,
>>>> 
>>>> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
>>>> 
>>>> Ralph
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <mailto:boards@gmail.com>>
wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and discussions,
it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the user lists as is. Shall we move
forward with combining them now?
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <mailto:dpsenner@gmail.com>>
wrote:
>>>>> Total agreement.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com
<mailto:ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped
the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <mailto:boards@gmail.com>>
wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects.
Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where
they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and
C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems
could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com
<mailto:mikael.staldal@magine.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages
we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com
<mailto:dpsenner@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects
to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration.
Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging
specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the
devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev
mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing
lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience.
Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that
about two weeks ago
>>>>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before
that a month ago
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that
might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com
<mailto:boards@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as
it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev
lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't
sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com
<mailto:ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC
votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s
lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed
would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Ralph
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com
<mailto:dpsenner@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing
lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current
state of the vote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@
-> dev@logging.apache.org <mailto:dev@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@,
general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <mailto:user@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I
just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging
Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@
-> dev@logging.apache.org <mailto:dev@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@,
general@ -> user@logging.apache.org <mailto:user@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails
become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish
between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though
it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least
3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
for at least 72 hours.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <mailto:boards@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <mailto:boards@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal
>>>>>> Senior software developer 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Magine TV
>>>>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com <mailto:mikael.staldal@magine.com>
   
>>>>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com 
<http://www.magine.com/>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this
message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
>>>>>> (or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you
may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, 
>>>>>> you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply
email.   
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <mailto:boards@gmail.com>>
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <mailto:boards@gmail.com>>
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <mailto:boards@gmail.com>>
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <mailto:boards@gmail.com>>
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <mailto:boards@gmail.com>>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <mailto:boards@gmail.com>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <mailto:boards@gmail.com>>


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