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From Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com>
Subject Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@
Date Mon, 13 Mar 2017 04:30:10 GMT
1. That seems fine to me.
2. Is it possible to do both? I like the idea of annoying the sender but still allowing the
email to be sent. It would cool if it could even add [list] to the start of the subject line.
3. This is the main thing that needs to happen.

Ralph



> On Mar 12, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Some things:
> 
> 1. Archives won't be merged.
> 2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email addresses respond with
a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over to dev@, though they can set it up all
as aliases if we prefer.
> 3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically subscribed to the combined
list.
> 
> So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders to use the new
list?
> 
> On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <mailto:boards@gmail.com>>
wrote:
> Created a request, not sure if it's public: https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651
<https://issues.apache.org/jira/servicedesk/customer/portal/1/INFRA-13651>
> 
> On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <mailto:ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>>
wrote:
> Yes,
> 
> If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.
> 
> Ralph
> 
>> On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <mailto:boards@gmail.com>>
wrote:
>> 
>> The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and discussions, it sounds
like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the user lists as is. Shall we move forward
with combining them now?
>> 
>> On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <mailto:dpsenner@gmail.com>>
wrote:
>> Total agreement.
>> 
>> On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com <mailto:ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>>
wrote:
>> This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped the other
lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.
>> 
>> Ralph
>> 
>> 
>>> On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <mailto:boards@gmail.com>>
wrote:
>>> 
>>> I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned
that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where they're using
both Java and C++ in various projects.
>>> 
>>> While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't
really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems could help
a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.
>>> 
>>> On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <mikael.staldal@magine.com <mailto:mikael.staldal@magine.com>>
wrote:
>>> I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we support,
and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com <mailto:dpsenner@gmail.com>>
wrote:
>>> We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to become
very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration. Given
that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification
implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all
subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists.
Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too.
Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting
the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:
>>> 
>>> log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two
weeks ago
>>> log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a
month ago
>>> 
>>> Cheers
>>> 
>>> On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>> We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of
general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.
>>>> 
>>>> Ralph
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <mailto:boards@gmail.com>>
wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause
any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one,
or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate,
but I don't know what that list is for).
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com
<mailto:ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>> wrote:
>>>>> You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”.
I don’t think that changes much however.
>>>>> 
>>>>> From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists
separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed
would be on a dev list anyway.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ralph
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <dpsenner@gmail.com
<mailto:dpsenner@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists
so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current
state of the vote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
<mailto:dev@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>> Matt Sicker: +1
>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: +1
>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: +0
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>> +1: 5
>>>>>> +0: 1
>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>> -1: 1
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@
-> user@logging.apache.org <mailto:user@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Matt Sicker: -1
>>>>>> Ralph Goers: +1
>>>>>> Stefan Bodewig: -1
>>>>>> Sven Rautenverg: -1
>>>>>> Thorsten Schöning: -0
>>>>>> Ivan Habunek: -0
>>>>>> Dominik Psenner: +1
>>>>>> Remko Popma: +1
>>>>>> Mikael Ståldal: -1
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Totals so far:
>>>>>> +1: 3
>>>>>> +0: 0
>>>>>> -0: 2
>>>>>> -1: 4
>>>>>> Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
>>>>>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed
to half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> dev@logging.apache.org
<mailto:dev@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@
-> user@logging.apache.org <mailto:user@logging.apache.org>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases
for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects,
a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> [java]
>>>>>>> [net]
>>>>>>> [cxx]
>>>>>>> [php]
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should
help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Voting:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>>>>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>>>>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>>>>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding,
no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least
72 hours.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <mailto:boards@gmail.com>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <mailto:boards@gmail.com>>
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Mikael Ståldal
>>> Senior software developer 
>>> 
>>> Magine TV
>>> mikael.staldal@magine.com <mailto:mikael.staldal@magine.com>    
>>> Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com  <http://www.magine.com/>
>>> 
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <mailto:boards@gmail.com>>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <mailto:boards@gmail.com>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <mailto:boards@gmail.com>>
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker <boards@gmail.com <mailto:boards@gmail.com>>


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