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From Jan Filipiak <Jan.Filip...@trivago.com>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] KIP-227: Introduce Incremental FetchRequests to Increase Partition Scalability
Date Tue, 05 Dec 2017 21:13:23 GMT
Hi Colin

Addressing the topic of how to manage slots from the other thread.
With tcp connections all this comes for free essentially.
I still would argue we disable it by default and make a flag in the broker
to ask the leader to maintain the cache while replicating and also only
have it optional in consumers (default to off) so one can turn it on 
where it really hurts.
MirrorMaker and audit consumers prominently.

Otherwise I left a few remarks in-line, which should help to understand
my view of the situation better

Best Jan

On 05.12.2017 08:06, Colin McCabe wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 4, 2017, at 02:27, Jan Filipiak wrote:
>> On 03.12.2017 21:55, Colin McCabe wrote:
>>> On Sat, Dec 2, 2017, at 23:21, Becket Qin wrote:
>>>> Thanks for the explanation, Colin. A few more questions.
>>>>> The session epoch is not complex.  It's just a number which increments
>>>>> on each incremental fetch.  The session epoch is also useful for
>>>>> debugging-- it allows you to match up requests and responses when
>>>>> looking at log files.
>>>> Currently each request in Kafka has a correlation id to help match the
>>>> requests and responses. Is epoch doing something differently?
>>> Hi Becket,
>>> The correlation ID is used within a single TCP session, to uniquely
>>> associate a request with a response.  The correlation ID is not unique
>>> (and has no meaning) outside the context of that single TCP session.
>>> Keep in mind, NetworkClient is in charge of TCP sessions, and generally
>>> tries to hide that information from the upper layers of the code.  So
>>> when you submit a request to NetworkClient, you don't know if that
>>> request creates a TCP session, or reuses an existing one.
>>>>> Unfortunately, this doesn't work.  Imagine the client misses an
>>>>> increment fetch response about a partition.  And then the partition is
>>>>> never updated after that.  The client has no way to know about the
>>>>> partition, since it won't be included in any future incremental fetch
>>>>> responses.  And there are no offsets to compare, since the partition
>>>>> simply omitted from the response.
>>>> I am curious about in which situation would the follower miss a response
>>>> of a partition. If the entire FetchResponse is lost (e.g. timeout), the
>>>> follower would disconnect and retry. That will result in sending a full
>>>> FetchRequest.
>>> Basically, you are proposing that we rely on TCP for reliable delivery
>>> in a distributed system.  That isn't a good idea for a bunch of
>>> different reasons.  First of all, TCP timeouts tend to be very long.  So
>>> if the TCP session timing out is your error detection mechanism, you
>>> have to wait minutes for messages to timeout.  Of course, we add a
>>> timeout on top of that after which we declare the connection bad and
>>> manually close it.  But just because the session is closed on one end
>>> doesn't mean that the other end knows that it is closed.  So the leader
>>> may have to wait quite a long time before TCP decides that yes,
>>> connection X from the follower is dead and not coming back, even though
>>> gremlins ate the FIN packet which the follower attempted to translate.
>>> If the cache state is tied to that TCP session, we have to keep that
>>> cache around for a much longer time than we should.
>> Hi,
>> I see this from a different perspective. The cache expiry time
>> has the same semantic as idle connection time in this scenario.
>> It is the time range we expect the client to come back an reuse
>> its broker side state. I would argue that on close we would get an
>> extra shot at cleaning up the session state early. As opposed to
>> always wait for that duration for expiry to happen.
> Hi Jan,
> The idea here is that the incremental fetch cache expiry time can be
> much shorter than the TCP session timeout.  In general the TCP session
> timeout is common to all TCP connections, and very long.  To make these
> numbers a little more concrete, the TCP session timeout is often
> configured to be 2 hours on Linux.  (See
> https://www.cyberciti.biz/tips/linux-increasing-or-decreasing-tcp-sockets-timeouts.html
> )  The timeout I was proposing for incremental fetch sessions was one or
> two minutes at most.
Currently this is taken care of by
connections.max.idle.ms on the broker and defaults to something of few 
Also something we could let the client change if we really wanted to.
So there is no need to worry about coupling our implementation to some 
given by the OS, with TCP one always has full control over the worst times +
one gets the extra shot cleaning up early when the close comes through. 
is the majority of the cases.

>>> Secondly, from a software engineering perspective, it's not a good idea
>>> to try to tightly tie together TCP and our code.  We would have to
>>> rework how we interact with NetworkClient so that we are aware of things
>>> like TCP sessions closing or opening.  We would have to be careful
>>> preserve the ordering of incoming messages when doing things like
>>> putting incoming requests on to a queue to be processed by multiple
>>> threads.  It's just a lot of complexity to add, and there's no upside.
>> I see the point here. And I had a small chat with Dong Lin already
>> making me aware of this. I tried out the approaches and propose the
>> following:
>> The client start and does a full fetch. It then does incremental fetches.
>> The connection to the broker dies and is re-established by NetworkClient
>> under the hood.
>> The broker sees an incremental fetch without having state => returns
>> error:
>> Client sees the error, does a full fetch and goes back to incrementally
>> fetching.
>> having this 1 additional error round trip is essentially the same as
>> when something
>> with the sessions or epoch changed unexpectedly to the client (say
>> expiry).
>> So its nothing extra added but the conditions are easier to evaluate.
>> Especially since we do everything with NetworkClient. Other implementers
>> on the
>> protocol are free to optimizes this and do not do the errornours
>> roundtrip on the
>> new connection.
>> Its a great plus that the client can know when the error is gonna
>> happen. instead of
>> the server to always have to report back if something changes
>> unexpectedly for the client
> You are assuming that the leader and the follower agree that the TCP
> session drops at the same time.  When there are network problems, this
> may not be true.  The leader may still think the previous TCP session is
> active.  In that case, we have to keep the incremental fetch session
> state around until we learn otherwise (which could be up to that 2 hour
> timeout I mentioned).  And if we get a new incoming incremental fetch
> request, we can't assume that it replaces the previous one, because the
> IDs will be different (the new one starts a new session).
As mentioned, no reason to fear some time-outs out of our control
>>> Imagine that I made an argument that client IDs are "complex" and should
>>> be removed from our APIs.  After all, we can just look at the remote IP
>>> address and TCP port of each connection.  Would you think that was a
>>> good idea?  The client ID is useful when looking at logs.  For example,
>>> if a rebalance is having problems, you want to know what clients were
>>> having a problem.  So having the client ID field to guide you is
>>> actually much less "complex" in practice than not having an ID.
>> I still cant follow why the correlation idea will not help here.
>> Correlating logs with it usually works great. Even with primitive tools
>> like grep
> The correlation ID does help somewhat, but certainly not as much as a
> unique 64-bit ID.  The correlation ID is not unique in the broker, just
> unique to a single NetworkClient.  Simiarly, the correlation ID is not
> unique on the client side, if there are multiple Consumers, etc.
Can always bump entropy in correlation IDs, never had a problem
of finding to many duplicates. Would be a different KIP though.
>>> Similarly, if metadata responses had epoch numbers (simple incrementing
>>> numbers), we would not have to debug problems like clients accidentally
>>> getting old metadata from servers that had been partitioned off from the
>>> network for a while.  Clients would know the difference between old and
>>> new metadata.  So putting epochs in to the metadata request is much less
>>> "complex" operationally, even though it's an extra field in the request.
>>>    This has been discussed before on the mailing list.
>>> So I think the bottom line for me is that having the session ID and
>>> session epoch, while it adds two extra fields, reduces operational
>>> complexity and increases debuggability.  It avoids tightly coupling us
>>> to assumptions about reliable ordered delivery which tend to be violated
>>> in practice in multiple layers of the stack.  Finally, it  avoids the
>>> necessity of refactoring NetworkClient.
>> So there is stacks out there that violate TCP guarantees? And software
>> still works? How can this be? Can you elaborate a little where this
>> can be violated? I am not very familiar with virtualized environments
>> but they can't really violate TCP contracts.
> TCP's guarantees of reliable, in-order transmission certainly can be
> violated.  For example, I once had to debug a cluster where a certain
> node had a network card which corrupted its transmissions occasionally.
> With all the layers of checksums, you would think that this was not
> possible, but it happened.  We occasionally got corrupted data written
> to disk on the other end because of it.  Even more frustrating, the data
> was not corrupted on disk on the sending node-- it was a bug in the
> network card driver that was injecting the errors.
true, but your broker might aswell read a corrupted 600GB as size from 
the network
and die with OOM instantly. Optimizing for still having functional software
under this circumstances is not reasonable. You want to get rid of such a
node ASAP and pray that zookeepers ticks get corrupted often enough
that it finally drops out of the cluster.

There is a good reason that these kinda things
don't end up as kafka Jiras. In the end you can't run any software in these
containers anymore. Application layer checksums are a neat thing to
fail fast but trying to cope with this probably causes more bad than good.
So I would argue that we shouldn't try this for the fetch requests.

> However, my point was not about TCP's guarantees being violated.  My
> point is that TCP's guarantees are only one small building block to
> build a robust distributed system.  TCP basically just says that if you
> get any bytes from the stream, you will get the ones that were sent by
> the sender, in the order they were sent.  TCP does not guarantee that
> the bytes you send will get there.  It does not guarantee that if you
> close the connection, the other end will know about it in a timely
> fashion.
These are very powerful grantees and since we use TCP we should
piggy pack everything that is reasonable on to it. IMO there is no
need to reimplement correct sequencing again if you get that from
your transport layer. It saves you the complexity, it makes
you application behave way more naturally and your api easier to understand.

There is literally nothing the Kernel wont let you decide
especially not any timings. Only noticeable exception being TIME_WAIT
of usually 240 seconds but that already has little todo with the broker 
itself and
if we are running out of usable ports because of this then expiring 
fetch requests
wont help much anyways.

I hope I could strengthen the trust you have in userland TCP connection
management. It is really powerful and can be exploited for maximum gains
without much risk in my opinion.

> It does not guarantee that the bytes will be received in a
> certain timeframe, and certainly doesn't guarantee that if you send a
> byte on connection X and then on connection Y, that the remote end will
> read a byte on X before reading a byte on Y.
Noone expects this from two independent paths of any kind.

> best,
> Colin
>> Hope this made my view clearer, especially the first part.
>> Best Jan
>>> best,
>>> Colin
>>>> If there is an error such as NotLeaderForPartition is
>>>> returned for some partitions, the follower can always send a full
>>>> FetchRequest. Is there a scenario that only some of the partitions in a
>>>> FetchResponse is lost?
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
>>>> On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 2:37 PM, Colin McCabe<cmccabe@apache.org>  wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, Dec 1, 2017, at 11:46, Dong Lin wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 9:37 AM, Colin McCabe<cmccabe@apache.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017, at 18:59, Dong Lin wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hey Colin,
>>>>>>>> Thanks much for the update. I have a few questions below:
>>>>>>>> 1. I am not very sure that we need Fetch Session Epoch. It
seems that
>>>>>>>> Fetch
>>>>>>>> Session Epoch is only needed to help leader distinguish between
>>>>> full
>>>>>>>> fetch request" and "a full fetch request and request a new
>>>>> incremental
>>>>>>>> fetch session". Alternatively, follower can also indicate
"a full
>>>>> fetch
>>>>>>>> request and request a new incremental fetch session" by setting
>>>>>>>> Session ID to -1 without using Fetch Session Epoch. Does
this make
>>>>> sense?
>>>>>>> Hi Dong,
>>>>>>> The fetch session epoch is very important for ensuring correctness.
>>>>>>> prevents corrupted or incomplete fetch data due to network reordering
>>>>> or
>>>>>>> loss.
>>>>>>> For example, consider a scenario where the follower sends a fetch
>>>>>>> request to the leader.  The leader responds, but the response
is lost
>>>>>>> because of network problems which affected the TCP session. 
In that
>>>>>>> case, the follower must establish a new TCP session and re-send
>>>>>>> incremental fetch request.  But the leader does not know that
>>>>>>> follower didn't receive the previous incremental fetch response.
 It is
>>>>>>> only the incremental fetch epoch which lets the leader know that
>>>>>>> needs to resend that data, and not data which comes afterwards.
>>>>>>> You could construct similar scenarios with message reordering,
>>>>>>> duplication, etc.  Basically, this is a stateful protocol on
>>>>>>> unreliable network, and you need to know whether the follower
got the
>>>>>>> previous data you sent before you move on.  And you need to handle
>>>>>>> issues like duplicated or delayed requests.  These issues do
not affect
>>>>>>> the full fetch request, because it is not stateful-- any full
>>>>>>> request can be understood and properly responded to in isolation.
>>>>>> Thanks for the explanation. This makes sense. On the other hand I
>>>>>> be interested in learning more about whether Becket's solution can
>>>>>> simplify the protocol by not having the echo field and whether that
>>>>>> worth doing.
>>>>> Hi Dong,
>>>>> I commented about this in the other thread.  A solution which doesn't
>>>>> maintain session information doesn't work here.
>>>>>>>> 2. It is said that Incremental FetchRequest will include
>>>>> whose
>>>>>>>> fetch offset or maximum number of fetch bytes has been changed.
>>>>>>>> follower's logStartOffet of a partition has changed, should
>>>>>>>> partition also be included in the next FetchRequest to the
>>>>>>> Otherwise, it
>>>>>>>> may affect the handling of DeleteRecordsRequest because leader
>>>>> not
>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>> the corresponding data has been deleted on the follower.
>>>>>>> Yeah, the follower should include the partition if the logStartOffset
>>>>>>> has changed.  That should be spelled out on the KIP.  Fixed.
>>>>>>>> 3. In the section "Per-Partition Data", a partition is not
>>>>>>>> dirty if its log start offset has changed. Later in the section
>>>>>>> "FetchRequest
>>>>>>>> Changes", it is said that incremental fetch responses will
include a
>>>>>>>> partition if its logStartOffset has changed. It seems inconsistent.
>>>>> Can
>>>>>>>> you update the KIP to clarify it?
>>>>>>> In the "Per-Partition Data" section, it does say that logStartOffset
>>>>>>> changes make a partition dirty, though, right?  The first bullet
>>>>>>> is:
>>>>>>>> * The LogCleaner deletes messages, and this changes the log
>>>>> offset
>>>>>>> of the partition on the leader., or
>>>>>> Ah I see. I think I didn't notice this because statement assumes
that the
>>>>>> LogStartOffset in the leader only changes due to LogCleaner. In fact
>>>>>> LogStartOffset can change on the leader due to either log retention
>>>>>> DeleteRecordsRequest. I haven't verified whether LogCleaner can change
>>>>>> LogStartOffset though. It may be a bit better to just say that a
>>>>>> partition is considered dirty if LogStartOffset changes.
>>>>> I agree.  It should be straightforward to just resend the partition if
>>>>> logStartOffset changes.
>>>>>>>> 4. In "Fetch Session Caching" section, it is said that each
>>>>> has a
>>>>>>>> limited number of slots. How is this number determined? Does
>>>>> require
>>>>>>>> a new broker config for this number?
>>>>>>> Good point.  I added two broker configuration parameters to control
>>>>> this
>>>>>>> number.
>>>>>> I am curious to see whether we can avoid some of these new configs.
>>>>>> example, incremental.fetch.session.cache.slots.per.broker is probably
>>>>> not
>>>>>> necessary because if a leader knows that a FetchRequest comes from
>>>>>> follower, we probably want the leader to always cache the information
>>>>>> from that follower. Does this make sense?
>>>>> Yeah, maybe we can avoid having
>>>>> incremental.fetch.session.cache.slots.per.broker.
>>>>>> Maybe we can discuss the config later after there is agreement on
how the
>>>>>> protocol would look like.
>>>>>>>> What is the error code if broker does
>>>>>>>> not have new log for the incoming FetchRequest?
>>>>>>> Hmm, is there a typo in this question?  Maybe you meant to ask
>>>>>>> happens if there is no new cache slot for the incoming FetchRequest?
>>>>>>> That's not an error-- the incremental fetch session ID just gets
set to
>>>>>>> 0, indicating no incremental fetch session was created.
>>>>>> Yeah there is a typo. You have answered my question.
>>>>>>>> 5. Can you clarify what happens if follower adds a partition
to the
>>>>>>>> ReplicaFetcherThread after receiving LeaderAndIsrRequest?
Does leader
>>>>>>>> needs to generate a new session for this ReplicaFetcherThread
>>>>> does it
>>>>>>> re-use
>>>>>>>> the existing session?  If it uses a new session, is the old
>>>>>>>> actively deleted from the slot?
>>>>>>> The basic idea is that you can't make changes, except by sending
a full
>>>>>>> fetch request.  However, perhaps we can allow the client to re-use
>>>>>>> existing session ID.  If the client sets sessionId = id, epoch
= 0, it
>>>>>>> could re-initialize the session.
>>>>>> Yeah I agree with the basic idea. We probably want to understand
>>>>>> detail about how this works later.
>>>>> Sounds good.  I updated the KIP with this information.  A
>>>>> re-initialization should be exactly the same as an initialization,
>>>>> except that it reuses an existing ID.
>>>>> best,
>>>>> Colin
>>>>>>>> BTW, I think it may be useful if the KIP can include the
>>>>> workflow
>>>>>>>> of how this feature will be used in case of partition change
and so
>>>>> on.
>>>>>>> Yeah, that might help.
>>>>>>> best,
>>>>>>> Colin
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> Dong
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 12:13 PM, Colin McCabe<cmccabe@apache.org>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I updated the KIP with the ideas we've been discussing.
>>>>>>>>> best,
>>>>>>>>> Colin
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 28, 2017, at 08:38, Colin McCabe wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017, at 22:30, Jan Filipiak wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Colin, thank you  for this KIP, it can become
a really
>>>>> useful
>>>>>>> thing.
>>>>>>>>>>> I just scanned through the discussion so far
and wanted to
>>>>> start a
>>>>>>>>>>> thread to make as decision about keeping the
>>>>>>>>>>> cache with the Connection / Session or having
some sort of UUID
>>>>>>> indN
>>>>>>>>> exed
>>>>>>>>>>> global Map.
>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry if that has been settled already and I
missed it. In this
>>>>>>> case
>>>>>>>>>>> could anyone point me to the discussion?
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Jan,
>>>>>>>>>> I don't think anyone has discussed the idea of tying
the cache
>>>>> to an
>>>>>>>>>> individual TCP session yet.  I agree that since the
cache is
>>>>>>> intended to
>>>>>>>>>> be used only by a single follower or client, it's
an interesting
>>>>>>> thing
>>>>>>>>>> to think about.
>>>>>>>>>> I guess the obvious disadvantage is that whenever
your TCP
>>>>> session
>>>>>>>>>> drops, you have to make a full fetch request rather
than an
>>>>>>> incremental
>>>>>>>>>> one.  It's not clear to me how often this happens
in practice --
>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>> probably depends a lot on the quality of the network.
 From a
>>>>> code
>>>>>>>>>> perspective, it might also be a bit difficult to
access data
>>>>>>> associated
>>>>>>>>>> with the Session from classes like KafkaApis (although
we could
>>>>>>> refactor
>>>>>>>>>> it to make this easier).
>>>>>>>>>> It's also clear that even if we tie the cache to
the session, we
>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>>>>> have to have limits on the number of caches we're
willing to
>>>>> create.
>>>>>>>>>> And probably we should reserve some cache slots for
>>>>> follower, so
>>>>>>>>>> that clients don't take all of them.
>>>>>>>>>>> Id rather see a protocol in which the client
is hinting the
>>>>> broker
>>>>>>>>> that,
>>>>>>>>>>> he is going to use the feature instead of a client
>>>>>>>>>>> realizing that the broker just offered the feature
>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> protocol version which should only indicate that
the feature
>>>>>>>>>>> would be usable).
>>>>>>>>>> Hmm.  I'm not sure what you mean by "hinting."  I
do think that
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> server should have the option of not accepting incremental
>>>>> requests
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>> specific clients, in order to save memory space.
>>>>>>>>>>> This seems to work better with a per
>>>>>>>>>>> connection/session attached Metadata than with
a Map and could
>>>>>>> allow
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> easier client implementations.
>>>>>>>>>>> It would also make Client-side code easier as
there wouldn't
>>>>> be any
>>>>>>>>>>> Cache-miss error Messages to handle.
>>>>>>>>>> It is nice not to have to handle cache-miss responses,
I agree.
>>>>>>>>>> However, TCP sessions aren't exposed to most of our
>>>>> code.
>>>>>>>>>> For example, when the Producer creates a message
and hands it
>>>>> off to
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> NetworkClient, the NC will transparently re-connect
and re-send a
>>>>>>>>>> message if the first send failed.  The higher-level
code will
>>>>> not be
>>>>>>>>>> informed about whether the TCP session was re-established,
>>>>> whether an
>>>>>>>>>> existing TCP session was used, and so on.  So overall
I would
>>>>> still
>>>>>>> lean
>>>>>>>>>> towards not coupling this to the TCP session...
>>>>>>>>>> best,
>>>>>>>>>> Colin
>>>>>>>>>>>     Thank you again for the KIP. And again, if
this was clarified
>>>>>>> already
>>>>>>>>>>> please drop me a hint where I could read about
>>>>>>>>>>> Best Jan
>>>>>>>>>>> On 21.11.2017 22:02, Colin McCabe wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>>> I created a KIP to improve the scalability
and latency of
>>>>>>>>> FetchRequest:
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/KAFKA/KIP-
>>>>>>>>> 227%3A+Introduce+Incremental+FetchRequests+to+Increase+
>>>>>>>>> Partition+Scalability
>>>>>>>>>>>> Please take a look.
>>>>>>>>>>>> cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Colin

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