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References: <DM3PR0601MB19956E5C26BD3C4163B18068E4510@DM3PR0601MB1995.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
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 <3953301.2412.1487890087614.JavaMail.Joan@RITA> <DM3PR0601MB1995723E6EE8C78BD5B2BE9EE4520@DM3PR0601MB1995.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <29604577.2769.1487979779350.JavaMail.Joan@RITA> <D99C93B6-564E-44BD-B357-108855A9B7B9@utt.fr>
 <14959631.2909.1488041228852.JavaMail.Joan@RITA> <28B0FEE8-E2AC-42C8-8633-E8EA680FAA5F@utt.fr>
 <F694E5A0-4BFC-4CB5-8CF8-6FEE44099D19@apache.org> <CAPimKeO49qgp6XDfUskxFC__xt_hevQ5eMn7Zp6XM3at8o-iAA@mail.gmail.com>
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 <ECF6088A-8905-4FAD-A90A-251684B5F7BE@apache.org> <CAPimKeNUuB6EToiGOk_atTFYWPTxhED5HVWieqJRO8R+PTT47w@mail.gmail.com>
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From: Martin Broerse <info@martinbroerse.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2017 16:59:09 +0100
Message-ID: <CAPimKeOcMAmev9z-DVA+pyBjid14oFLQ0aTewSF8rgUOpY3wbQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Whither CouchApps (Was: views failing due to fabric_worker_timeout
 and OS process timed out)
To: Jan Lehnardt <jan@apache.org>
Cc: user@couchdb.apache.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113c036ef59749054985285a
archived-at: Mon, 27 Feb 2017 15:59:17 -0000

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Hi Jan,

We use the vhost and rewrite rules everywhere via
https://www.npmjs.com/package/ember-cli-deploy-couchdb . Sofa (
https://github.com/ampatspell/ember-cli-sofa) is a new project that started
using this. We are moving clients to Cloudant and because of the vhost it
is all they need to run their applications.

How is the voting for keeping this feature done?

- Martin


On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 12:23 PM, Jan Lehnardt <jan@apache.org> wrote:

>
> > On 27 Feb 2017, at 11:23, Martin Broerse <info@martinbroerse.com> wrote=
:
> >
> > Hi Jan,
> >
> > By `the hosting feature` I mean the rewrite rules and the vhost. Good t=
o
> > hear that is not going away.
>
> I said attachments are not going away. rewrites and vhosts are probably
> not going to be re-implemented in a new http layer (unless we find
> someone who wants to write the code and maintain it, *hint* *hint*)
>
> Best
> Jan
> --
>
> >
> > - Martin
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 11:04 AM, Jan Lehnardt <jan@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Not sure what you mean with `the hosing feature`, but attachments are
> not
> >> going away.
> >>
> >> FWIW, I=E2=80=99d be in favour of having a modern CouchApp platform ho=
oked into
> >> CouchDB, but in the past 5 years we haven=E2=80=99t found anyone who=
=E2=80=99d be
> willing
> >> to put in the work.
> >>
> >> Best
> >> Jan
> >> --
> >>
> >>> On 27 Feb 2017, at 10:58, Martin Broerse <info@martinbroerse.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi Jan,
> >>>
> >>> If we split thinking about CouchApp in the hosting part and the backe=
nd
> >>> coding part it would not hurt our usage if we lose the coding part. T=
he
> >>> coding part we need on the backend like password resetmails and other
> >>> scheduled tasks are not there so the coding part needs to be more
> >> powerful
> >>> before we can use it. We can solve this tasks with OpenWhisk so perha=
ps
> >>> keep the hosting feature and lose the rest?
> >>>
> >>> The Ember guys at LinkedIn found it is faster to eval javascript load=
ed
> >> as
> >>> strings than loading the javascript from the backend. We have not
> tested
> >>> this yet but if this is true we can perhaps bootstrap javascript apps
> >> from
> >>> strings hosted in CouchDB but we still need the CouchDB hosting part
> for
> >>> the bootstrap code.
> >>>
> >>> So in the future we are for keeping the hosting and lose the rest.
> >>>
> >>> - Martin
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 9:18 AM, Jan Lehnardt <jan@apache.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi Martin,
> >>>>
> >>>> thanks for your comment.
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 27 Feb 2017, at 07:52, Martin Broerse <info@martinbroerse.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> We use the hosting from couchapp for many projects via
> >>>>> https://www.npmjs.com/package/ember-cli-deploy-couchdb so keep it i=
n
> >>>>> couchdb. To replace excel sheets in businesses it is super you don'=
t
> >>>> need a
> >>>>> separate hosting stack. An example couchapp hosted only on Cloudant=
:
> >>>>> https://bloggr.exmer.com
> >>>>
> >>>> Existing versions of CouchDB that support CouchApps aren=E2=80=99t g=
oing away,
> >>>> and I=E2=80=99m sure Cloudant will keep things around for a while, t=
oo.
> >>>>
> >>>> This is about the future of CouchDB and the non-existent developer
> >>>> time that is required to maintain these features as CouchDB evolves.
> >>>>
> >>>> Best
> >>>> Jan
> >>>> --
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - Martin
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 at 6:40 PM, Jan Lehnardt <jan@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Aur=C3=A9lien,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I see that at least at some point you were subscribed and
> >> participating
> >>>> on
> >>>>>> the couchapp@couchdb.apache.org mailing list. From the stated goal
> of
> >>>> the
> >>>>>> list (find a new technical foundation for CouchApp) and the lack o=
f
> >>>>>> significant engagement (users and devs alike) there, it should hav=
e
> >> been
> >>>>>> clear where this is headed.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> And just to reiterate:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 1. CouchApp was an attempt to revolutionise web development as we
> know
> >>>> it.
> >>>>>> =E2=80=94 It failed, in like 2011.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 2. It was designed in a world before Node.js. Most folks who want =
to
> >> do
> >>>>>> JavaScript and CouchDB have moved on.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 3. There are SEVERE technical limitations, most of which aren=E2=
=80=99t as
> bad
> >>>> as
> >>>>>> a view index generator, but VERY bad for anything OLTP (think CGI
> from
> >>>> 90s).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 4. The features are unmaintained at this point, future refactoring=
s
> >>>> might
> >>>>>> make the unavailable (e.g. in a http layer rewrite). The last
> >>>> significant
> >>>>>> work on the relevant code is 5-6 years in the past.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 5.We invited the CouchApp community to step up and build a
> >> future-ready
> >>>>>> version of CouchApps, complete with a design direction and own
> mailing
> >>>>>> list.. Nobody stepped up, and at the end of the day, a project goe=
s
> >>>> where
> >>>>>> developers can spend time.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 6. and to be clear, we are talking about: 1. _show & _list 2.
> _update
> >>>>>> funs, 3. rewrites // for the time being, we=E2=80=99ll keep
> >> validate_doc_update
> >>>> and
> >>>>>> filter functions, but plan to replace them with per-doc access
> control
> >>>> and
> >>>>>> Mango schema enforcement. The idea of design docs, or attachments =
on
> >>>>>> documents are not going away.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In terms of ease of building web apps: a Node.js process running
> next
> >> to
> >>>>>> CouchDB is only minimally more setup hassle and gives you:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 1. The same baseline features, plus a lot more.
> >>>>>> 2. A simple app building model.
> >>>>>> 3. A RICH ecosystem of third party libraries.
> >>>>>> 4. WAAAAAAAY better performance and scalability.
> >>>>>> 5. A future for you to do just the things you are already doing
> >> without
> >>>>>> moving to another platform.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Best
> >>>>>> Jan
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 25 Feb 2017, at 18:22, Aur=C3=A9lien B=C3=A9nel <aurelien.bene=
l@utt.fr>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hi Joan,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Your email is aggressive, and your apology is not accepted.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I didn=E2=80=99t want it to be. I beg you for your pardon then.
> >>>>>>> My frustration was real, but I can assure you that I am not an
> >>>>>> aggressive person.
> >>>>>>> There would not have been any ambiguity in my mother language :
> >>>>>>> discussing technologies in a foreign language is one thing,
> >> expressing
> >>>>>> your feelings is another.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> This topic has been discussed to death on the mailing lists and =
I
> am
> >>>>>> not going to be pulled into a retread of this argument.
> >>>>>>>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/couchdb-dev/
> >>>>>> 201702.mbox/%3CB6DB98EC-42B1-4960-9E43-257F040238F1%40apache.org%3=
E
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I=E2=80=99m just a =C2=AB user =C2=BB=E2=80=A6 a very dedicated a=
nd passionated user (I=E2=80=99m in
> >> the
> >>>>>> top 10% on StackOverflow about CouchDB and I taught CouchDB to mor=
e
> >> than
> >>>>>> 150 french software engineers), but a user. That=E2=80=99s why I n=
ever
> >>>> subscribed
> >>>>>> to the =C2=AB dev =C2=BB  mailing list (or for a very short period=
 of time). I
> >> now
> >>>>>> understand that I should have, but it=E2=80=99s too late.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> My frustration is as high as has been my passion for six years fo=
r
> >> this
> >>>>>> incredibly interesting project.
> >>>>>>> I respect the board decisions but now I will have a hard time
> finding
> >>>>>> money (which is sparse in academic research) to move all of our
> >>>> software to
> >>>>>> a different technology stack and arguments to explain to all of my
> >>>>>> collaborators that I bet on a technology stack that got rapidly
> >>>> deprecated.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thank you for your understanding.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Best regards,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Aur=C3=A9lien
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB:
> >>>>>> https://neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB:
> >>>> https://neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB:
> >> https://neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/
> >>
> >>
>
> --
> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB:
> https://neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/
>
>

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