Mailing-List: contact marketing-help@couchdb.apache.org; run by ezmlm
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: marketing@couchdb.apache.org
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\))
Subject: Re: The future of couchapps
From: Robert Samuel Newson <rnewson@apache.org>
In-Reply-To: <3AF2960A-1867-4A71-9985-23CF96A05792@b2w.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 16:25:07 +0100
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <C6F93743-9BD1-43DC-9E1B-648BE3687CE8@apache.org>
References: <26483399.1013.1442700738794.JavaMail.Joan@RITA>
 <12DD0512-58B8-48E1-9AF3-9F9669CD3FE3@b2w.com>
 <C818171D-B42C-4363-9170-6142C38D3C49@apache.org>
 <3AF2960A-1867-4A71-9985-23CF96A05792@b2w.com>
To: marketing@couchdb.apache.org

Johs,

I think you=E2=80=99ve taken my reply out of context, but I can see that =
I=E2=80=99ve forced you to read between the lines because I didn=E2=80=99t=
 address the topic directly.

I also think the discussion of couchapps does not belong on the =
marketing@ mailing list. I feel that marketing@ should be exclusively =
about marketing topics, not development (current or future).

It is a fact that no development has been done on couchapps in years, it =
is also a fact that couchapps are limited in their abilities. I share =
Jason=E2=80=99s concerns that it=E2=80=99s a bad experience to achieve =
something with couchapps as they exist today only to run into a limit, =
with no workaround.=20

I define the couchapp support in CouchDB as these endpoints (and only =
these); _rewrite, _update, _show and _list. These are each =
user-programmable server-side endpoints, stored within a design =
document.

I see no reason to drop those features. All I believe the PMC is saying =
is that couchapps will not become more powerful than these endpoints =
unless some individual or group steps up to do it; the core development =
team are explicitly saying that they are not working on it.

All these endpoints will be in CouchDB 2.0.

Now, to Cloudant. Cloudant is typically used in a database-as-a-service =
mode, where customers have a front end and an application middle tier; =
ergo they do not use the four couchapp endpoints much (_rewrite for its =
part in virtual hosting notwithstanding) but we have customers, at =
various scales, using couchapp functionality and we plan to continue =
supporting those users.

In the event that _rewrite, _update, _show and _list become an optional =
add-on, Cloudant will deploy that add-on to all our clusters.

Regards,
Robert Newson
CouchDB PMC and IBM Cloudant Senior Database Engineer


> On 21 Sep 2015, at 03:30, Johs Ensby <johs@b2w.com> wrote:
>=20
> Thanks Robert,
> for what I regard as a good closing statement for this thread.
>=20
> In my environment IBMs support has a very good brand rub-off effect =
and the support for couchapps with hosting providers is what I think is =
important to recruit new developers to Couch.
> I will pick up the dialogue directly with Cloudant as to what we can =
expect specifically on couchapp support going forward.
>=20
> Johs
> - looking forward to an Erlang programmer eager to pursue Couch app =
server functionality respond to the welcome extended to her or him.=20
>=20
>> On 20. sep. 2015, at 15.28, Robert Newson <rnewson@apache.org> wrote:
>>=20
>> On Cloudant versus couchdb the plan is still code convergence. 2.0 is =
very close imo and considerable effort has occurred within Cloudant to =
prepare to switch to it in our production environment.=20
>>=20
>> As for what is staying Cloudant only, it's things like geospatial, =
the multi-tenancy and the automation, monitoring and alerting that are =
needed to deliver a service. The database and its ability to replicate =
and form fault tolerant clusters is open source and remaining so. =
Cloudant will work directly on the asf repositories that now exist for =
future enhancements.=20
>>=20
>> B.=20
>>=20
>>> On 20 Sep 2015, at 09:49, Johs Ensby <johs@b2w.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Thanks Joan,
>>> for wrapping this up in a 100% PMC support for Jan's "watch me" on =
this.
>>> It is good to know, so we who could contribute, but not as erlang =
programmers, hold our horses.
>>> I understand that we can be a big nuisance as long as there is no =
one to do the development work on the team.=20
>>>=20
>>> Just to sum my take-away:
>>> The PMC will wholeheartedly welcome the continuation of work for =
what we without a good breakdown of what it means call "couchapps" =
provided there is a "hero" to do the heavy lifting in terms of erlang =
programming
>>> We should not count on even the present functionality for =
"Couchapps" being present in future releases
>>>=20
>>> To #1 I attribute these statements:
>>>> Jan Lehnardt 18. sep. 2015
>>>> In my last email I specifically suggested for such a person to step =
up and I=E2=80=99d welcome them wholeheartedly.
>>>=20
>>>>> Alexander Shorin  September 19, 2015
>>>=20
>>>>> this place is vacant and we are welcome everyone who would
>>>>> like to take this duty on his/her shoulders.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> and to #2 I look at:
>>> Jan's "watch me" response to Giovanni's=20
>>>>> - you can't remove something that ALREADY exists which A LOT of
>>>>> people like, use and have businesses on top, just because you and =
a few
>>>>> people
>>>=20
>>> and
>>> Alex'
>>>>> Otherwise CouchApps will continue to be feature of secondary type, =
sort of accidental side
>>>>> effect from technical decisions of good past days. No need to say
>>>>> what such state means. They may simply not survive next major =
release.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Alex' more consequential prediction i presume is the meaning behind =
Jan's "watch me", since this still is an open source community, and I am =
perfectly OK with there being some emotions in this conversation. It is =
not about the nuances anymore, it is about  100% of the PMC backing =
this.
>>>=20
>>> For me it means leaving the community for now.
>>> It doesn't make sense to me to spend time here until an Erlang =
programmer has chosen to respond to the wholehearted welcome that has =
been extended.
>>> I see CouchDB as part of a bigger ecosystem and will try to =
contribute at some other node.
>>>=20
>>> My best wishes for success and progress with hopes for extended =
openness and compatibility with the rest of the Couch ecosystem
>>>=20
>>> Johs
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> On 20. sep. 2015, at 00.12, Joan Touzet <wohali@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> I'll concur with Alex here. My survey of the PMC members so far has
>>>> resulted in 100% of us in agreement with Jan's comments.
>>>>=20
>>>> This is not a power play, it is a logical, reasoned decision with =
many
>>>> factors that play a part -- not the least of which is that there =
are so
>>>> many great web frameworks out there that do such a better job than =
we do
>>>> with CouchApps. We'd need a massive effort to catch up with them, =
and a
>>>> significant number of developers just to keep pace. Right now, =
there's
>>>> no one working on CouchApps period, as has been repeatedly stated =
on the
>>>> list.
>>>>=20
>>>> If you are willing to put in the time to develop the Erlang, =
JavaScript
>>>> and possibly C to build the new functionality, and are able to =
sustain
>>>> development on that over the course of the years it would take to =
match
>>>> e.g. Python or Node.JS's community level for web apps...well, let's =
just
>>>> say that I look forward to your GitHub pull requests. :)
>>>>=20
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Joan
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Alexander Shorin" <kxepal@gmail.com>
>>>>> To: marketing@couchdb.apache.org
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2015 1:45:52 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: The future of couchapps
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Hi John,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The future of CouchApps is trivial and was already discussed on =
this
>>>>> ML[1]: this feature stalled over 4 years already, it has quite =
enough
>>>>> issues and limitations, it lacks maintainer. If something of these
>>>>> won't change in nearest future, CouchApps are doomed. And all
>>>>> solutions lies though the hero(es) who will maintain and develop =
this
>>>>> feature.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The question here is not only about to keep existed code works. =
It's
>>>>> also about vision of what CouchApps are, what they have to be, how =
to
>>>>> evolve them and make really great and useful feature for CouchDB
>>>>> users
>>>>> and not only.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Currently, there is no active leader of CouchApp feature in =
CouchDB
>>>>> team, so this place is vacant and we are welcome everyone who =
would
>>>>> like to take this duty on his/her shoulders.  Otherwise CouchApps
>>>>> will
>>>>> continue to be feature of secondary type, sort of accidental side
>>>>> effect from technical decisions of good past days. No need to say
>>>>> what
>>>>> such state means. They may simply not survive next major release.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> [1]: Follow this thread:
>>>>> =
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/couchdb-marketing/201505.mbox/%3C=
CAPMhwa5R6CdeQP-m_FHfqYsJ4NDwLYiePuwrsi2bRfzifncRpw%40mail.gmail.com%3E
>>>>> - it's long, but has all the same answers.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> --
>>>>> ,,,^..^,,,
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 8:16 PM, Johs Ensby <johs@b2w.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi all -- both couchapp lovers and skeptics,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I want to start a new thread based on the below conversation
>>>>>> between Jan and Giovanni at the end of the thread [VOTE]
>>>>>> WHY/HOW/WHAT.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I am in the group of stakeholders that have a business that rely =
on
>>>>>> CouchDB. And I use couchApps hosted on Cloudant. I would like to
>>>>>> see the community grow, not split again and there seems to be a
>>>>>> tone developing that I am sorry if I have been a contributor to.
>>>>>> Rather than having wide-reaching discussion about dream features
>>>>>> of future couchapps, I will try to stay on the subject of a =
future
>>>>>> for couchapps or not.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> The "watch me" from Jan below is very disturbing to me.
>>>>>> I would appreciate seeing some comments from PMC members on this.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Johs
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> On 18. sep. 2015, at 13.52, Jan Lehnardt <jan@apache.org> =
wrote:
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> - you don't know if tomorrow some erlang skilled couchapp lover
>>>>>>>> won't get
>>>>>>>> in and start working on the app part (to say the truth some of
>>>>>>>> them were
>>>>>>>> already active in the past, but they chose to left just because
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> this/yours direction)
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> In my last email I specifically suggested for such a person to
>>>>>>> step up and I=E2=80=99d welcome them wholeheartedly.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> - you can't remove something that ALREADY exists which A LOT of
>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>> like, use and have businesses on top, just because you and a =
few
>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>> don't like it
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Watch me.
>>>=20
>=20