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From: Andy Wenk <andywenk@apache.org>
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 11:08:06 +0200
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Subject: Re: How do CouchApps fit into the CouchDB story? (Was: CouchDB
 Articles, Pills and Tutorials Ideas)
To: "marketing@couchdb.apache.org" <marketing@couchdb.apache.org>
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Hi,

Jan thanks for raising this important topic!

As I had been around and participated when JChris, Jan and others started
CouchApps and Benoit took over the work, I am a bit sad, that CouchApps
started to confuse people. And yes it is true, they are limited but have
their place in the history of CouchDB. Far more, it can easily be seen as
the evolutionary basis for Hoodie and that is a good thing imho.

We should give CouchApps a place to live in the CouchDB ecosystem (not
meant technically). So my proposal is to reactivate couchapp.org and write
one page with info about

* what CouchApps are
* how one can create one (links to doku)
* what alternatives there are (kanso, hoodie ...)

Furthermore we should include a link on couchdb.org to couchapp.org.

I think it would be wrong to leave people still in the dark even though
nowadays we think, CouchApps is not the way one should create a WebApp
based on CouchDB (and I don't think the approaches to create CouchApps was
foolish Jan ;-)). It is our responsibility to clarify what CouchApps are
and why one should move forward to sth. better. With clarification comes
clarity

All the best

Andy


On 5 May 2015 at 10:54, Jan Lehnardt <jan@apache.org> wrote:

> It seems we have a separate discussion going on here, so I forked the
> thread.
>
> I=E2=80=99ve seen these two sides ever since we invented CouchApps:
>
> Pro:
>  - CouchApps are amazingly simple
>  - CouchDB as an app server is a great idea, I don=E2=80=99t need to run =
any other
> infrastructure
>  - this is the future of web development
>  - couchapp* is a great tool to manage design docs
>
> (*or erica=E2=80=A6 etc.)
>
> Con:
>  - the concept of compiling design docs is confusing
>    - even when they get it, they are confused that they need a third part=
y
> tool called `couchapp` to do so, because the documentation talks about
> building full apps in CouchDB, they have an external app and just want to
> use CouchDB as a database, but couchapp is still the tool they need.
>  - the tooling is poor
>  - the tooling is all third-party
>  - they can only cover a very limited use-case
>  - CouchApps are the only way to use CouchDB
>
>
> I see a number of people being passionate about CouchApps and I believe
> their enthusiasm is warranted, CouchApps are a neat idea.
>
> But I also see a greater number of people being confused by CouchApps and
> in turn by CouchDB.
>
> That is not a good situation.
>
> Let=E2=80=99s think about how (and if) we can fit the CouchApp story into=
 a
> coherent CouchDB story.
>
> A prerequisite for that is having a coherent CouchDB story, which we don=
=E2=80=99t
> have fully finalised yet, but we have talked about extensively, and the
> consensus is around the =E2=80=9CData where you need it=E2=80=9D narrativ=
e that emphasises
> replication between CouchDB instances and other projects that speak the
> replication protocol (especially PouchDB and TouchDB).
>
> How do CouchApps fit into that narrative?
>
>
> * * *
>
> (Personal view alert: this is just to give some more background on my own
> position, this isn=E2=80=99t meant as a basis for discussion)
>
> I=E2=80=99m personally conflicted. When we set out to develop CouchApps, =
we
> thought we are inventing a new paradigm for how to build the web, and
> everybody would follow us, because that would enable a true p2p web. That
> didn=E2=80=99t happen and probably was a little foolish of us :D
>
> Technically, that would have meant CouchApps had to grow a lot more and I
> realised quickly that CouchDB is not the right place to grow such a thing=
.
> In addition, there are various fully fledged web frameworks already and
> CouchApps could never really compete in terms of person-power and attenti=
on.
>
> That all led me to re-evaluate the whole value proposition, when things
> like PouchDB came up and the browser became a decent application
> development platform. That whole thinking led to the creation of Hoodie (
> http://hood.ie), which started out with the code name CANG (Couch Apps
> Next Generation), where we liked some of the core ideas of CouchApps, but
> wanted to address the limitations that would stifle their adoption. Hoodi=
e
> embraces browser-to-server sync to allow fully offline apps, it allows
> all-javascript-all-json development on the front- and back-end. It uses t=
he
> database-per-user and the _changes-feed-as-async-worker paradigms and it =
is
> all wrapped into a package that is *really* easy to understand and get
> started with. Hoodie, unlike CouchApps, does have a fighting chance of
> making CouchDB=E2=80=99s unique features (replication, _changes) availabl=
e for a
> larger population and I=E2=80=99m infinitely excited about that.
>
> * * *
>
> All that doesn=E2=80=99t mean, however, that CouchApps don=E2=80=99t have=
 their place, but
> again, I=E2=80=99m not sure where that place is and the place it currentl=
y has
> seems to negatively affect CouchDB, so I=E2=80=99d like for this list to =
think and
> talk about all that for a bit.
>
> How can we make it that CouchApps strengthen CouchDB and not weaken it by
> adding confusion?
>
> How do CouchApps fit into the CouchDB story?
>
>
> Best
> Jan
> --
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 05 May 2015, at 08:45, ermouth <ermouth@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> CouchDB-killing answers
> >
> > Well... When someone says couchapps is silver bullet =E2=80=93 I say =
=E2=80=98No=E2=80=99 and I
> can
> > prove it. Couchapps have a lot, A LOT of problems, and some of them can
> not
> > be solved inside CouchDB. For example, try to implement ACL for
> attachments
> > or try to scale couchapp. You just can=E2=80=98t do it in reasonable wa=
y.
> >
> > I know several engineers who tried out couchapps =E2=80=93 and left Cou=
chDB
> > forever. Not because CouchDB itself, but because couchapps. O=E2=80=98R=
eilly said
> > it=E2=80=98s a silver bullet, others said =E2=80=93 and what we have? S=
loppy and
> > hard-to-debug architecture, that does not scale, has no tooling and a l=
ot
> > of security issues.
> >
> > You gonna solve architecture problems with positive posts?
> >
> > What I want to say =E2=80=93 there is no need to lie and say couchapps =
are great.
> > Because they are not.
> >
> >> would you like to write down some of your positive:-)) experiences?
> >
> > http://ermouth.livejournal.com/tag/couchdb =E2=80=93 sorry, Russian lan=
guage.
> >
> > ermouth
>
> --
> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB:
> http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/
>
>


--=20
Andy Wenk
Hamburg - Germany
RockIt!

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