Mailing-List: contact marketing-help@couchdb.apache.org; run by ezmlm
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Reply-To: marketing@couchdb.apache.org
Date: Sat, 9 May 2015 15:25:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: Joan Touzet <wohali@apache.org>
Reply-To: Joan Touzet <wohali@apache.org>
To: marketing@couchdb.apache.org, Joan Touzet <wohali@apache.org>
Cc: Mike Broberg <mbroberg@us.ibm.com>, simon@cloudant.com
Message-ID: <6284260.303.1431199521413.JavaMail.Joan@RITA>
In-Reply-To: <2460868.278.1431195987480.JavaMail.Joan@RITA>
Subject: Re: the future of couchapp
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One additional data point here. I mention "serious customers" as
narrowly defined in this email as the thousands-to-millions of $
customers. CouchApps probably have a place in the lower end of the
market, i.e. shared instance users who have lightweight needs for
their applications and are customers of IrisCouch or SmileApps. I
wasn't trying to say there isn't a market for this :) The business
case to be made for them is very different, i.e. razor thin margins
across thousands to millions of people. Such an approach wasn't
logical for Cloudant - the shared instances don't drive the company
like the dedicated instances do. Because of this data I think
CouchApps as a primary user story is very hard road to walk for us.

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joan Touzet" <wohali@apache.org>
> To: marketing@couchdb.apache.org
> Cc: "Mike Broberg" <mbroberg@us.ibm.com>, smetson@uk.ibm.com
> Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2015 2:26:26 PM
> Subject: Re: the future of couchapp
> 
> Hi Miles,
> 
> DISCLAIMER: I am not speaking as an official representative of IBM or
> Cloudant. I have cc'ed Mike Broberg, who can speak for them if
> necessary. (I also want him to be aware of what I am saying here).
> 
> *** TL;DR: the people who are willing to spend anywhere from
> thousands to millions of dollars on a CouchDB-based solution aren't
> interested in CouchApps. I think the discussion to date is missing
> this, and as such, is entirely unrepresentative of the current
> market for Apache CouchDB.
> 
> The answer is that there are practically no customers of Cloudant/IBM
> who are banking on CouchApps for any serious need. Every client that
> I can think of - meaning they have a dedicated cluster, and aren't
> using the shared cluster service - are using either a traditional
> three-tier app server structure (Node.JS, Python, PHP, Ruby, Java,
> .NET, etc.) or are doing client-side development on mobile platforms
> (iOS + TouchDB, Android + PouchDB) where they are replicating back to
> the Cloudant clusters for data exchange. In all of these scenarios,
> replication is the "killer feature" for CouchDB, with the REST
> interface a close second, and the ease of unstructured JSON data as
> a third.
> 
> Cloudant built out a document-level (and field-level!) security
> solution for one customer, about two years ago now. While there was
> initial interest, performance considerations lead to the solution
> being backburnered for further consideration. Even in that situation,
> CouchApps weren't the primary concern -- database-level enforcement
> of security rules *was*.
> 
> Within Cloudant, perhaps Simon Metson was the primary proponent of
> using CouchApps for serious purposes. He used them in the "For
> Developers" section of the website to help demonstrate various key
> features of the platform, including the new MongoDB-inspired Mango
> feature that's now a part of CouchDB 2.0. Diana Thayer (@garbados)
> picked up on this and built a documentation framework on top of
> CouchApps. This, to me, is perhaps the ideal use of CouchApps:
> unsecured content, read-only, displayed in different formats based
> upon what the end user needs, and self-hosted by CouchDB (so you
> can view the product's documentation using the product itself).
> More information on this use is at:
> 
> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/couchdb-dev/201410.mbox/%3C28603443.66.1414446738764.JavaMail.joant@Joans-MacBook-Pro.local%3E
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Miles Fidelman" <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net>
> > To: marketing@couchdb.apache.org
> > Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 11:21:28 AM
> > Subject: Re: the future of couchapp
> > 
> > Let's be clear.
> > (Good) marketing isn't about selling a solution to folks who don't
> > have
> > a problem in the first place, it's about it's identifying problems
> > for
> > which we offer a solution.
> > 
> > And.. it occurs to me that Cloudant has been doing market research
> > and
> > "real" marketing - perhaps some folks from Cloudant might share
> > some
> > findings related to CouchDB (as opposed to those that might relate
> > to
> > their commercial extensions and services)?
> > 
> > Miles Fidelman
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Giovanni Lenzi wrote:
> > >> translates user@ decisions in "how to drive them to the public"?
> > > or maybe better how to drive dev@ implemented features to the
> > > public ?
> > >
> > > 2015-05-08 16:57 GMT+02:00 Giovanni Lenzi
> > > <g.lenzi@smileupps.com>:
> > >
> > >> Got it, Joan. Thanks for the useful reminder, considered I am a
> > >> total
> > >> newbie here, I definitely don't know how decision-making process
> > >> is driven.
> > >>
> > >> We will cut the "features" part from this discussion then and
> > >> take
> > >> it to
> > >> the devs@ list
> > >>
> > >> Here we should then focus on @jan's request about the story for
> > >> couchapps.. given that until 2 days ago that was somehow
> > >> uncertain
> > >>
> > >> But I think too this is more a user@ topic... isn't maybe
> > >> marketing more
> > >> appropriate to translates user@ decisions in "how to drive them
> > >> to
> > >> the
> > >> public"? If you all agree with that, you can move this
> > >> discussion
> > >> to user@
> > >> or dev@, don't know what is preferable.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> 2015-05-08 15:56 GMT+02:00 Joan Touzet <wohali@apache.org>:
> > >>
> > >>> Hi all,
> > >>>
> > >>> PMC hat on...
> > >>>
> > >>> Reminding you *again* that we should not be using the MARKETING
> > >>> list to
> > >>> discuss new FEATURES and functionality for Apache CouchDB. We
> > >>> are
> > >>> not
> > >>> like a company where marketing makes up what they want to do,
> > >>> and
> > >>> development is forced to implement it. While it's a good idea
> > >>> to
> > >>> have a
> > >>> feedback loop between marketing and development, I am
> > >>> especially
> > >>> keen to
> > >>> not see Apache CouchDB turn into a marketing-driven development
> > >>> effort.
> > >>>
> > >>> If you are proposing new CouchDB features, please make those
> > >>> proposals
> > >>> on the dev@ mailing list. And if you are willing to *develop*
> > >>> and
> > >>> *support* those functions - even better. Current CouchDB
> > >>> development
> > >>> bandwidth is extremely limited, and would best be served by
> > >>> helping you
> > >>> to understand the current design's constraints, and the
> > >>> difficulties
> > >>> that may be inherent in what you ask for.
> > >>>
> > >>> Best regards,
> > >>> Joan
> > >>>
> > >>> ----- Original Message -----
> > >>>> From: "Giovanni Lenzi" <g.lenzi@smileupps.com>
> > >>>> To: marketing@couchdb.apache.org
> > >>>> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 4:05:12 AM
> > >>>> Subject: Re: the future of couchapp
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> A service-trigger feature could be one of the new features of
> > >>>>> Couch
> > >>>>> apps.
> > >>>> if possible, would be awesome :)
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> some clear design goals and a very limited set of features to
> > >>>>> add
> > >>>>> to
> > >>>> CouchDB ddocs and focus on an in-browser tool (add features to
> > >>>> Fauxton)
> > >>>> that removes the need for new developers to learn git and
> > >>>> build
> > >>>> tools
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Giovanni Lenzi
> > >> www.smileupps.com
> > >> Smileupps Cloud App Store
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
> > In practice, there is.   .... Yogi Berra
> > 
> > 
>