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From Andy Wenk <andyw...@apache.org>
Subject Re: the future of couchapp
Date Mon, 11 May 2015 21:44:16 GMT
Alex, thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts on the topic. I like it a lot
and fully ACK.

Jan, I agree with you but at the end I don't see the need for any
rearrangements or additions or cuts. For me, it was always clear what the
purpose of the marketing list is and you / we already clarified this
various times in this and the regarding threads. Imho, we just need to
communicate this very clearly and with this thread I think it is clear. We
could also add  some clarifications to the description for the marketing ML
on the website if we see a need for it.

All the best

Andy

On 11 May 2015 at 18:53, Jan Lehnardt <jan@apache.org> wrote:

> I agree that CouchDB is not a
> marketing-decides/sales-sells/engineers-build operation, but I think
> marketing@ can play a role in defining the features of CouchDB through
> the figuring out the story of CouchDB. I realise that I might be unique in
> my position here because my suggestions for marketing@ are implying “I’m
> prepared to do the legwork on dev@” which isn’t true for everyone else
> here, so I need to keep that in mind a little better. I also agree that we
> on marketing@ can’t just dream up something and then hope dev@ builds it,
> but we can help shape the thinking of dev@ once we have some clearer idea
> of what that story can be.
>
> FWIW, I don’t think there’d be massive changes, just some rearrangements
> and some additions and some cuts and mostly story telling on our various
> media outlets.
>
> Best
> Jan
> --
>
>
>
> > On 11 May 2015, at 07:45, Johs Ensby <johs@b2w.com> wrote:
> >
> > Joan and Andy,
> > “Spreading the word” isn’t marketing.
> > You should rename the list to promotion@ if you think it is.
> > I don’t know where the idea that developers are forced to implement
> suggestions from the marketing list came from, not from me.
> > To discuss marketing without ideas on customer value and future features
> is turning the clock 75 year back.
> > I you are so scared of non-erlang programmer discussing features, why do
> you have a marketing list?
> >
> > Johs
> >
> >> On 09 May 2015, at 21:45, Andy Wenk <andywenk@apache.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Joan, thanks a lot for your reminder. This is very well received and I
> >> think the majority of people of this thread do understand, that the
> Apache
> >> CouchDB project is definitely not comparable to "business".
> >>
> >> The goal of the marketing list is more than often defined. This list is
> for
> >> spreading the word about CouchDB like with information in the wiki, logo
> >> stuff, the story of CouchDB, weekly news and so on. As in every Apache
> >> project, the dev@ mailing-list is THE place to discuss any features for
> >> Apache CouchDB.
> >>
> >> One word to CouchApps. I am very happy about the discussion about
> >> CouchApps. And I am strongly supporting everyone who is building stuff
> with
> >> it. Like smileupps is doing. CouchApps have their historical place in
> >> Apache CouchDB. But the way we will support CouchApps further - be it
> the
> >> naming or sth else - is a completely different story.
> >>
> >> So let's separate the topics to the appropriate ML and keep on moving.
> >>
> >> All the best
> >>
> >> Andy
> >>
> >> On 9 May 2015 at 21:25, Joan Touzet <wohali@apache.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> One additional data point here. I mention "serious customers" as
> >>> narrowly defined in this email as the thousands-to-millions of $
> >>> customers. CouchApps probably have a place in the lower end of the
> >>> market, i.e. shared instance users who have lightweight needs for
> >>> their applications and are customers of IrisCouch or SmileApps. I
> >>> wasn't trying to say there isn't a market for this :) The business
> >>> case to be made for them is very different, i.e. razor thin margins
> >>> across thousands to millions of people. Such an approach wasn't
> >>> logical for Cloudant - the shared instances don't drive the company
> >>> like the dedicated instances do. Because of this data I think
> >>> CouchApps as a primary user story is very hard road to walk for us.
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "Joan Touzet" <wohali@apache.org>
> >>>> To: marketing@couchdb.apache.org
> >>>> Cc: "Mike Broberg" <mbroberg@us.ibm.com>, smetson@uk.ibm.com
> >>>> Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2015 2:26:26 PM
> >>>> Subject: Re: the future of couchapp
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi Miles,
> >>>>
> >>>> DISCLAIMER: I am not speaking as an official representative of IBM or
> >>>> Cloudant. I have cc'ed Mike Broberg, who can speak for them if
> >>>> necessary. (I also want him to be aware of what I am saying here).
> >>>>
> >>>> *** TL;DR: the people who are willing to spend anywhere from
> >>>> thousands to millions of dollars on a CouchDB-based solution aren't
> >>>> interested in CouchApps. I think the discussion to date is missing
> >>>> this, and as such, is entirely unrepresentative of the current
> >>>> market for Apache CouchDB.
> >>>>
> >>>> The answer is that there are practically no customers of Cloudant/IBM
> >>>> who are banking on CouchApps for any serious need. Every client that
> >>>> I can think of - meaning they have a dedicated cluster, and aren't
> >>>> using the shared cluster service - are using either a traditional
> >>>> three-tier app server structure (Node.JS, Python, PHP, Ruby, Java,
> >>>> .NET, etc.) or are doing client-side development on mobile platforms
> >>>> (iOS + TouchDB, Android + PouchDB) where they are replicating back to
> >>>> the Cloudant clusters for data exchange. In all of these scenarios,
> >>>> replication is the "killer feature" for CouchDB, with the REST
> >>>> interface a close second, and the ease of unstructured JSON data as
> >>>> a third.
> >>>>
> >>>> Cloudant built out a document-level (and field-level!) security
> >>>> solution for one customer, about two years ago now. While there was
> >>>> initial interest, performance considerations lead to the solution
> >>>> being backburnered for further consideration. Even in that situation,
> >>>> CouchApps weren't the primary concern -- database-level enforcement
> >>>> of security rules *was*.
> >>>>
> >>>> Within Cloudant, perhaps Simon Metson was the primary proponent of
> >>>> using CouchApps for serious purposes. He used them in the "For
> >>>> Developers" section of the website to help demonstrate various key
> >>>> features of the platform, including the new MongoDB-inspired Mango
> >>>> feature that's now a part of CouchDB 2.0. Diana Thayer (@garbados)
> >>>> picked up on this and built a documentation framework on top of
> >>>> CouchApps. This, to me, is perhaps the ideal use of CouchApps:
> >>>> unsecured content, read-only, displayed in different formats based
> >>>> upon what the end user needs, and self-hosted by CouchDB (so you
> >>>> can view the product's documentation using the product itself).
> >>>> More information on this use is at:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/couchdb-dev/201410.mbox/%3C28603443.66.1414446738764.JavaMail.joant@Joans-MacBook-Pro.local%3E
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: "Miles Fidelman" <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net>
> >>>>> To: marketing@couchdb.apache.org
> >>>>> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 11:21:28 AM
> >>>>> Subject: Re: the future of couchapp
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Let's be clear.
> >>>>> (Good) marketing isn't about selling a solution to folks who don't
> >>>>> have
> >>>>> a problem in the first place, it's about it's identifying problems
> >>>>> for
> >>>>> which we offer a solution.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And.. it occurs to me that Cloudant has been doing market research
> >>>>> and
> >>>>> "real" marketing - perhaps some folks from Cloudant might share
> >>>>> some
> >>>>> findings related to CouchDB (as opposed to those that might relate
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> their commercial extensions and services)?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Miles Fidelman
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Giovanni Lenzi wrote:
> >>>>>>> translates user@ decisions in "how to drive them to the
public"?
> >>>>>> or maybe better how to drive dev@ implemented features to the
> >>>>>> public ?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 2015-05-08 16:57 GMT+02:00 Giovanni Lenzi
> >>>>>> <g.lenzi@smileupps.com>:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Got it, Joan. Thanks for the useful reminder, considered
I am a
> >>>>>>> total
> >>>>>>> newbie here, I definitely don't know how decision-making
process
> >>>>>>> is driven.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> We will cut the "features" part from this discussion then
and
> >>>>>>> take
> >>>>>>> it to
> >>>>>>> the devs@ list
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Here we should then focus on @jan's request about the story
for
> >>>>>>> couchapps.. given that until 2 days ago that was somehow
> >>>>>>> uncertain
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> But I think too this is more a user@ topic... isn't maybe
> >>>>>>> marketing more
> >>>>>>> appropriate to translates user@ decisions in "how to drive
them
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> public"? If you all agree with that, you can move this
> >>>>>>> discussion
> >>>>>>> to user@
> >>>>>>> or dev@, don't know what is preferable.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 2015-05-08 15:56 GMT+02:00 Joan Touzet <wohali@apache.org>:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hi all,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> PMC hat on...
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Reminding you *again* that we should not be using the
MARKETING
> >>>>>>>> list to
> >>>>>>>> discuss new FEATURES and functionality for Apache CouchDB.
We
> >>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>> like a company where marketing makes up what they want
to do,
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> development is forced to implement it. While it's a
good idea
> >>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>> have a
> >>>>>>>> feedback loop between marketing and development, I am
> >>>>>>>> especially
> >>>>>>>> keen to
> >>>>>>>> not see Apache CouchDB turn into a marketing-driven
development
> >>>>>>>> effort.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> If you are proposing new CouchDB features, please make
those
> >>>>>>>> proposals
> >>>>>>>> on the dev@ mailing list. And if you are willing to
*develop*
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> *support* those functions - even better. Current CouchDB
> >>>>>>>> development
> >>>>>>>> bandwidth is extremely limited, and would best be served
by
> >>>>>>>> helping you
> >>>>>>>> to understand the current design's constraints, and
the
> >>>>>>>> difficulties
> >>>>>>>> that may be inherent in what you ask for.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Best regards,
> >>>>>>>> Joan
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>>>> From: "Giovanni Lenzi" <g.lenzi@smileupps.com>
> >>>>>>>>> To: marketing@couchdb.apache.org
> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 4:05:12 AM
> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: the future of couchapp
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> A service-trigger feature could be one of the
new features of
> >>>>>>>>>> Couch
> >>>>>>>>>> apps.
> >>>>>>>>> if possible, would be awesome :)
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> some clear design goals and a very limited set
of features to
> >>>>>>>>>> add
> >>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>> CouchDB ddocs and focus on an in-browser tool (add
features to
> >>>>>>>>> Fauxton)
> >>>>>>>>> that removes the need for new developers to learn
git and
> >>>>>>>>> build
> >>>>>>>>> tools
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Giovanni Lenzi
> >>>>>>> www.smileupps.com
> >>>>>>> Smileupps Cloud App Store
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
> >>>>> In practice, there is.   .... Yogi Berra
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Andy Wenk
> >> Hamburg - Germany
> >> RockIt!
> >>
> >> GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
> >>
> >> https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc
> >
>
> --
> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB:
> http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/
>
>


-- 
Andy Wenk
Hamburg - Germany
RockIt!

GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588

 https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc

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