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From Johs Ensby <>
Subject Re: the future of couchapp
Date Mon, 11 May 2015 05:45:03 GMT
Joan and Andy,
“Spreading the word” isn’t marketing.
You should rename the list to promotion@ if you think it is.
I don’t know where the idea that developers are forced to implement suggestions from the
marketing list came from, not from me.
To discuss marketing without ideas on customer value and future features is turning the clock
75 year back.
I you are so scared of non-erlang programmer discussing features, why do you have a marketing


> On 09 May 2015, at 21:45, Andy Wenk <> wrote:
> Joan, thanks a lot for your reminder. This is very well received and I
> think the majority of people of this thread do understand, that the Apache
> CouchDB project is definitely not comparable to "business".
> The goal of the marketing list is more than often defined. This list is for
> spreading the word about CouchDB like with information in the wiki, logo
> stuff, the story of CouchDB, weekly news and so on. As in every Apache
> project, the dev@ mailing-list is THE place to discuss any features for
> Apache CouchDB.
> One word to CouchApps. I am very happy about the discussion about
> CouchApps. And I am strongly supporting everyone who is building stuff with
> it. Like smileupps is doing. CouchApps have their historical place in
> Apache CouchDB. But the way we will support CouchApps further - be it the
> naming or sth else - is a completely different story.
> So let's separate the topics to the appropriate ML and keep on moving.
> All the best
> Andy
> On 9 May 2015 at 21:25, Joan Touzet <> wrote:
>> One additional data point here. I mention "serious customers" as
>> narrowly defined in this email as the thousands-to-millions of $
>> customers. CouchApps probably have a place in the lower end of the
>> market, i.e. shared instance users who have lightweight needs for
>> their applications and are customers of IrisCouch or SmileApps. I
>> wasn't trying to say there isn't a market for this :) The business
>> case to be made for them is very different, i.e. razor thin margins
>> across thousands to millions of people. Such an approach wasn't
>> logical for Cloudant - the shared instances don't drive the company
>> like the dedicated instances do. Because of this data I think
>> CouchApps as a primary user story is very hard road to walk for us.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Joan Touzet" <>
>>> To:
>>> Cc: "Mike Broberg" <>,
>>> Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2015 2:26:26 PM
>>> Subject: Re: the future of couchapp
>>> Hi Miles,
>>> DISCLAIMER: I am not speaking as an official representative of IBM or
>>> Cloudant. I have cc'ed Mike Broberg, who can speak for them if
>>> necessary. (I also want him to be aware of what I am saying here).
>>> *** TL;DR: the people who are willing to spend anywhere from
>>> thousands to millions of dollars on a CouchDB-based solution aren't
>>> interested in CouchApps. I think the discussion to date is missing
>>> this, and as such, is entirely unrepresentative of the current
>>> market for Apache CouchDB.
>>> The answer is that there are practically no customers of Cloudant/IBM
>>> who are banking on CouchApps for any serious need. Every client that
>>> I can think of - meaning they have a dedicated cluster, and aren't
>>> using the shared cluster service - are using either a traditional
>>> three-tier app server structure (Node.JS, Python, PHP, Ruby, Java,
>>> .NET, etc.) or are doing client-side development on mobile platforms
>>> (iOS + TouchDB, Android + PouchDB) where they are replicating back to
>>> the Cloudant clusters for data exchange. In all of these scenarios,
>>> replication is the "killer feature" for CouchDB, with the REST
>>> interface a close second, and the ease of unstructured JSON data as
>>> a third.
>>> Cloudant built out a document-level (and field-level!) security
>>> solution for one customer, about two years ago now. While there was
>>> initial interest, performance considerations lead to the solution
>>> being backburnered for further consideration. Even in that situation,
>>> CouchApps weren't the primary concern -- database-level enforcement
>>> of security rules *was*.
>>> Within Cloudant, perhaps Simon Metson was the primary proponent of
>>> using CouchApps for serious purposes. He used them in the "For
>>> Developers" section of the website to help demonstrate various key
>>> features of the platform, including the new MongoDB-inspired Mango
>>> feature that's now a part of CouchDB 2.0. Diana Thayer (@garbados)
>>> picked up on this and built a documentation framework on top of
>>> CouchApps. This, to me, is perhaps the ideal use of CouchApps:
>>> unsecured content, read-only, displayed in different formats based
>>> upon what the end user needs, and self-hosted by CouchDB (so you
>>> can view the product's documentation using the product itself).
>>> More information on this use is at:
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Miles Fidelman" <>
>>>> To:
>>>> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 11:21:28 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: the future of couchapp
>>>> Let's be clear.
>>>> (Good) marketing isn't about selling a solution to folks who don't
>>>> have
>>>> a problem in the first place, it's about it's identifying problems
>>>> for
>>>> which we offer a solution.
>>>> And.. it occurs to me that Cloudant has been doing market research
>>>> and
>>>> "real" marketing - perhaps some folks from Cloudant might share
>>>> some
>>>> findings related to CouchDB (as opposed to those that might relate
>>>> to
>>>> their commercial extensions and services)?
>>>> Miles Fidelman
>>>> Giovanni Lenzi wrote:
>>>>>> translates user@ decisions in "how to drive them to the public"?
>>>>> or maybe better how to drive dev@ implemented features to the
>>>>> public ?
>>>>> 2015-05-08 16:57 GMT+02:00 Giovanni Lenzi
>>>>> <>:
>>>>>> Got it, Joan. Thanks for the useful reminder, considered I am a
>>>>>> total
>>>>>> newbie here, I definitely don't know how decision-making process
>>>>>> is driven.
>>>>>> We will cut the "features" part from this discussion then and
>>>>>> take
>>>>>> it to
>>>>>> the devs@ list
>>>>>> Here we should then focus on @jan's request about the story for
>>>>>> couchapps.. given that until 2 days ago that was somehow
>>>>>> uncertain
>>>>>> But I think too this is more a user@ topic... isn't maybe
>>>>>> marketing more
>>>>>> appropriate to translates user@ decisions in "how to drive them
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> public"? If you all agree with that, you can move this
>>>>>> discussion
>>>>>> to user@
>>>>>> or dev@, don't know what is preferable.
>>>>>> 2015-05-08 15:56 GMT+02:00 Joan Touzet <>:
>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>> PMC hat on...
>>>>>>> Reminding you *again* that we should not be using the MARKETING
>>>>>>> list to
>>>>>>> discuss new FEATURES and functionality for Apache CouchDB. We
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> like a company where marketing makes up what they want to do,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> development is forced to implement it. While it's a good idea
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> have a
>>>>>>> feedback loop between marketing and development, I am
>>>>>>> especially
>>>>>>> keen to
>>>>>>> not see Apache CouchDB turn into a marketing-driven development
>>>>>>> effort.
>>>>>>> If you are proposing new CouchDB features, please make those
>>>>>>> proposals
>>>>>>> on the dev@ mailing list. And if you are willing to *develop*
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> *support* those functions - even better. Current CouchDB
>>>>>>> development
>>>>>>> bandwidth is extremely limited, and would best be served by
>>>>>>> helping you
>>>>>>> to understand the current design's constraints, and the
>>>>>>> difficulties
>>>>>>> that may be inherent in what you ask for.
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>> Joan
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Giovanni Lenzi" <>
>>>>>>>> To:
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 4:05:12 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: the future of couchapp
>>>>>>>>> A service-trigger feature could be one of the new features
>>>>>>>>> Couch
>>>>>>>>> apps.
>>>>>>>> if possible, would be awesome :)
>>>>>>>>> some clear design goals and a very limited set of features
>>>>>>>>> add
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> CouchDB ddocs and focus on an in-browser tool (add features
>>>>>>>> Fauxton)
>>>>>>>> that removes the need for new developers to learn git and
>>>>>>>> build
>>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Giovanni Lenzi
>>>>>> Smileupps Cloud App Store
>>>> --
>>>> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
>>>> In practice, there is.   .... Yogi Berra
> -- 
> Andy Wenk
> Hamburg - Germany
> RockIt!
> GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588

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