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[77.106.146.189]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z4-v6sm3469394lfa.57.2018.07.08.11.30.32 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 08 Jul 2018 11:30:33 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.4 \(3445.8.2\)) Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Officially deprecate CouchDB 1.x. From: Johs Ensby In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2018 20:30:31 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <36B5F979-3F64-4216-831B-BA771A0BF9D0@b2w.com> References: <669664040.62.1530737473858.JavaMail.Joan@BRAIN> <9E7C26A3-1AFB-4C79-9D45-4AA36A3CFADD@b2w.com> <990819082.4776.1530765104234.JavaMail.Joan@RITA> <16CE1895-0BE7-4BA7-BA2D-90EB4FB25EAB@b2w.com> <895686736.5135.1530900082473.JavaMail.Joan@RITA> <1381114553.5274.1530983935805.JavaMail.Joan@RITA> <9E6B70C9-5D20-446E-B44E-2A55C502F9E2@b2w.com> To: "dev@couchdb.apache.org Developers" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.8.2) Roger that,=20 over and out. Johs > On 8 Jul 2018, at 17:58, Jan Lehnardt wrote: >=20 > There might be a misunderstanding of what is required to keep 1.x from = being deprecated. >=20 > It is not a detailed plan, lengthy discussion, or request for features = or extended support. >=20 > It is people spending the time in the code and issues to prepare = branches that they then produce release candidates of. The changes and = issues triaged can be bugfixes and security fixes. >=20 > Until the people who end up doing this, do not materialise, there is = little sense in further discussions, as merely making requests for work = and not putting in the work are a decent waste of everybody=E2=80=99s = time. >=20 > Note how number of users/downloads/etc doesn=E2=80=99t factor into the = above. >=20 > But while we are at it, from 75 responses to the CouchDB survey so = far, we have about 30% 1.x users. That=E2=80=99s down from ~70% in the = 2017 survey (of 130 people). Note that multiple answers were possible, = so the 1.x operators might also run 2.x. >=20 > Those numbers and the trend along with everything else, I=E2=80=99m = confident in deprecating 1.x. 1.x is a fine piece of software and = existing installations of it will continue to run just fine, but this = project is moving on. >=20 > Best > Jan > =E2=80=94 >=20 >> On 8. Jul 2018, at 14:59, Johs Ensby wrote: >>=20 >> Thanks Joan, >>=20 >> Your take on the data is >>> To me the data is more proof that asking to keep 1.x on a lifeline = is >>> serving a vanishingly small amount of users. >>=20 >>=20 >> I see no proof in the data and I disagree with respect how to best go = about "serving a vanishingly small amount of users." >>=20 >> My take on the data is guesswork, but I would love to see someone = tare it down with data: >>=20 >> 1) Millions have played with CouchDB (we are now left with a = vanishingly small amount of these) >> 2) Tens of thousands of servers are running with CouchDB today >> (20 000+ downloads of 2.x for Debian/Ubuntu/CebtOs/RHEL over a year = indicate intention to upgrade, however, not actual upgrade) >> 3) Average 100+/day downloads of 2.1.1 is another indicator of = upgrade activity being strong. >> 4) Thousands of sysops/sysdevs have CouchDB 1.x as part of their = stack, they have not been heard in this discussion yet >> 5) Regarding developer activity and experimentation, the spikes = connected to releases are interesting: >> -- 2,237 downloads of 1.7.1 for Windows on the same day early January = is a significant spike that I don't know the background for. >> -- Spikes for 2.x on Mac indicate 600-900 active Mac-using = developers, but we don't know much about the sysops' plans to upgrade >>=20 >> Regarding my offer to write a paper to make a case for keeping 1.x = open you said >>>>> Thanks for the offer. Before writing up a full paper, what would >>>>> your first 3 acts be? >> I thought you wanted me to hold my horses and do this step by step >> It would be a bit akward to start discussing the point 2-3 until = having feeback on my intentions. >> Should I proceed to point 1? >>=20 >> I still think your proposal, as it was "tabled" had been better = without the first what-it-means-point, which is a far-reaching decision = with unclear benefit. >> Also, I think the result of the recent user survey should be = published to support the decision making. >>=20 >> Johs >>=20 >>=20 >>> On 7 Jul 2018, at 19:18, Joan Touzet wrote: >>>=20 >>> Johs Ensby wrote: >>>> Thanks for this, Joan >>>>=20 >>>> You must have put a lot time and effort into this and it is _highly >>>> appreciated_. >>>=20 >>> You're welcome. >>>=20 >>>> The "official" https://www-us.apache.org/dyn/stats/couchdb.log = seems >>>> like a >>>> nice place to follow the trend.=20 >>>=20 >>> For a limited amount of data, compared to how popular the binary >>> distributions from bintray.com are, yes. >>>=20 >>> If Infra is able to give us access to the archived closer.lua data, >>> we should be able to get a better picture of relative popularity, >>> at least for people who click through https://couchdb.apache.org/ to >>> download the tarball. >>>=20 >>>> What is in second column, download >>>> time? >>>=20 >>> The script that generates the file is at: >>>=20 >>> = https://svn.apache.org/viewvc/infrastructure/site/trunk/content/dyn/closer= .lua?view=3Dmarkup >>>=20 >>> That field is generated on line 464, which is grabbing the final = octet >>> of the IP address for uniqueness. This can help de-duplicate data, = or >>> look for "ballot-stuffing" by someone trying to make one download or = the >>> other look more popular. ;) >>>=20 >>>> Although it is hard to compile totals out of this, the fact that = the >>>> numbers are >>>> small is a fact.=20 >>>=20 >>> Again, compared to the binary downloads. Including the Docker = downloads >>> (which do not separate by version #, which is why I haven't included = them >>> in my email) there are 30+ million downloads of CouchDB in the wild. >>>=20 >>> To me the data is more proof that asking to keep 1.x on a lifeline = is >>> serving a vanishingly small amount of users. >>>=20 >>>> Lost of upside and few people to deal with as the >>>> base, >>>> which means that anyone who value CouchDB today can make a huge >>>> impact, relatively speeking. >>>=20 >>> In terms of people making a large impact, it's more about the total >>> number of contributors and committers to the project. As a PMC = member, >>> I want to see more contributors and committers who are interested in >>> making CouchDB better, not in publicity hounds who just want to pad >>> their resume by working on a high-profile OSS project. (Not pointing >>> fingers at you, just thinking out loud.) >>>=20 >>>> Thanks also for this response: >>>>> Thanks for the offer. Before writing up a full paper, what would >>>>> your >>>>> first 3 acts be? >>>> 1) State my intentions, for feedback >>>> 2) Table my case for a 1.x branch with limit scope, again for = feeback >>>> 3) Table an outline >>>=20 >>> In terms of 1.x scope, my first choice is to end support for it. >>> Every single committer has voted +1 on this proposal so far; only = you >>> and one other dev have cast non-binding votes against it. >>>=20 >>> If there is sufficient interest to continue with 1.x, the primary >>> need is for someone to maintain it for security patches only. This >>> would need to be established committer(s) on the project who would >>> be available rapidly to patch and spin new releases if and when any >>> security issues are raised by external reporters confidentially. >>>=20 >>> If there's even more interest beyond that, then the only scope >>> I can see is for bug fixes based on GitHub issue tracker posts, or >>> at the very most, back ports of any 2.x features or changes that >>> will make the migration to 2.x easier. This might include many >>> deprecation warnings we talked about at one point. >>>=20 >>> I don't want to see branched development on 1.x that adds new >>> 1.x-only features, or back ports of major new 2.x functionality >>> like Mango or clustering. >>>=20 >>> I don't speak for the rest of the PMC on this. >>>=20 >>> -Joan >>=20 >=20