From dev-return-10798-archive-asf-public=cust-asf.ponee.io@community.apache.org Sun Oct 14 13:35:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: archive-asf-public@cust-asf.ponee.io Delivered-To: archive-asf-public@cust-asf.ponee.io Received: from mail.apache.org (hermes.apache.org [140.211.11.3]) by mx-eu-01.ponee.io (Postfix) with SMTP id 3D153180679 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2018 13:35:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 4546 invoked by uid 500); 14 Oct 2018 11:35:29 -0000 Mailing-List: contact dev-help@community.apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Id: Reply-To: dev@community.apache.org Delivered-To: mailing list dev@community.apache.org Received: (qmail 4512 invoked by uid 99); 14 Oct 2018 11:35:29 -0000 Received: from mail-relay.apache.org (HELO mailrelay2-lw-us.apache.org) (207.244.88.137) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Sun, 14 Oct 2018 11:35:29 +0000 Received: from [192.168.23.12] (host86-152-79-27.range86-152.btcentralplus.com [86.152.79.27]) by mailrelay2-lw-us.apache.org (ASF Mail Server at mailrelay2-lw-us.apache.org) with ESMTPSA id 1A9A4469; Sun, 14 Oct 2018 11:35:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists To: dev@community.apache.org, Javier Borkenztain , dev@fineract.apache.org, Mifos software development , mifos-users Cc: user@fineract.apache.org References: From: Mark Thomas Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=markt@apache.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBEq0DukBEAD4jovHOPJDxoD+JnO1Go2kiwpgRULasGlrVKuSUdP6wzcaqWmXpqtOJKKw W2MQFQLmg7nQ9RjJwy3QCbKNDJQA/bwbQT1F7WzTCz2S6vxC4zxKck4t6RZBq2dJsYKF0CEh 6ZfY4dmKvhq+3istSoFRdHYoOPGWZpuRDqfZPdGm/m335/6KGH59oysn1NE7a2a+kZzjBSEg v23+l4Z1Rg7+fpz1JcdHSdC2Z+ZRxML25eVatRVz4yvDOZItqDURP24zWOodxgboldV6Y88C 3v/7KRR+1vklzkuA2FqF8Q4r/2f0su7MUVviQcy29y/RlLSDTTYoVlCZ1ni14qFU7Hpw43KJ tgXmcUwq31T1+SlXdYjNJ1aFkUi8BjCHDcSgE/IReKUanjHzm4XSymKDTeqqzidi4k6PDD4j yHb8k8vxi6qT6Udnlcfo5NBkkUT1TauhEy8ktHhbl9k60BvvMBP9l6cURiJg1WS77egI4P/8 2oPbzzFiGFqXyJKULVgxtdQ3JikCpodp3f1fh6PlYZwkW4xCJLJucJ5MiQp07HAkMVW5w+k8 Xvuk4i5quh3N+2kzKHOOiQCDmN0sz0XjOE+7XBvM1lvz3+UarLfgSVmW8aheLd7eaIl5ItBk 8844ZJ60LrQ+JiIqvqJemxyIM6epoZvY5a3ZshZpcLilC5hW8QARAQABzSJNYXJrIEUgRCBU aG9tYXMgPG1hcmt0QGFwYWNoZS5vcmc+wsF3BBMBCgAhBQJKtA7pAhsDBQsJCAcDBRUKCQgL BRYCAwEAAh4BAheAAAoJEBDAHFovYFnn2YgQAKN6FLG/I1Ij3PUlC/XNlhasQxPeE3w2Ovtt weOQPYkblJ9nHtGH5pNqG2/qoGShlpI04jJy9GxWKOo7NV4v7M0mbVlCXVgjdlvMFWdL7lno cggwJAFejQcYlVtxyhu4m50LBvBunEhxCbQcKnnWmkB7Ocm0Ictaqjc9rCc1F/aNhVMUpJ0z G1kyTp9hxvN6TbCQlacMx5ocTWzL0zn6QZhbUfrYwfxYJmSnkVYZOYzXIXIsLN5sJ9Q4P8tj Y4qWgd+bQvOqPWrkzL9LVRnGOrSYIsoM5zWdoj1g1glMzK/ZqJdRqqqBhe6FYTbXipz8oX8i mCebcaxZnfLhGiqqX+yDa3YUwDiqom+sZOc0iXGvKkqltPLpNeF0MVT7aZjalsQ/v2Ysb24R Ql9FfjfWmvT8ZPWz8Kore1AI4UcIIgFVtM+zuLlL9CIsGjg+gHDE2dhZDY0qfizlHL9CoAWU DM3pIfxM2V4BRn1xO+j/mModhjmYLZvnFVz4KGkNO7wRkofAANIWYo3WI5x83BGDH371t3NR rrpSSFP0XpQX6/Leaj2j6U6puABL2qBxhscsO6chc3u4/+019ff+peZVsc9ttcTQXsKIujmM b8p2sk5usmv6PKVX3oW/RAxpbVHU5kZ5px1Hq7mMQdZfLs5ff4YymXBH02z4/RmSzPam0Xb5 zsFNBEq0DukBEADCNEkws5YroBmbu8789Xf006gTl5LzD/Hdt3sAp9iCfPgucO+l7U+xbo1X HTMJQwEVfS+Rx3RbaLYRG+hU7FuJLQB/5NaCDNRuqw5KHyQtJUH+zo84IqqfMzG8aOSdHg1y r2xKH4QTmgQONBu/W0xEZmZro6TjYNwkk2pwXK2yuImZPUOy+mK1qF8Wm3hTtkPE+FFSNFIa eHDoTGmx/0Riu/K7dNJTrC0TlRpn2K6d60zB53YYTc+0DYSDyB0FupXiAx/+XEGn3Q7eNi2B V6w50v5r51QP8zptiFflMfFKNAfV8xS5MteQd98YS5qqd/LPo3gS5HFPQaSL0k3RTClv7fQN HcZFqmv0OWpix6zm2npYxhqsTDGeSa52/uXehVXF5JubYFifMSLpbGVZqdrmG5hr2cycxsjF iY0zJOaRitmN/JWbOGLiwrcN4ukKNyFntFG5jPaFnJdx9rHfyJNeF9cgv9JlZeFxJ6WqIAhl KOuH3K8/py0SPE6ZOFfRo0YUxvh25K/siOcPLm613aOxyY7YfQ8ME2vgn7I0mAtg9am+YFDa bGqj839odwZdzZv2T2mUHnybFTJFBuMWGWKYstYDS6eZEmhupbPvUKkDug/mO+gdo+pSKF9Y S6DM5RtCdTNJq4NZY50ypBb5RSj+INHPocIp2V/DDTbzySsu6wARAQABwsFfBBgBCgAJBQJK tA7pAhsMAAoJEBDAHFovYFnnLe0P/i34oK5cE2LlqUEITEcTO94x1EX0UmtKokRfQ3AYWK8X eFD8cmSty72hMkL+1c0V//4Qc53SUyLIWXk8FKWF7hdL3zyuBqlRb55721CYC35GA/jR90p0 k1vr701gaat2cNTOVC0/6H9cE5yYXT+zMr9TSiKCDwONhhSbmAJZc6X0fgsmCD7I5xUI5Vri hN/Wx0CZBtrXGUyE4hgFaYSGptZmkY5Ln1e+nI185Bda7bpLwcAIGrI9nYtVXgf71ybGKdPP tFfXIoPXuctn99M7NnWBhNuGDms2YWkOC7eeWBTxKkZDWR3vRmRy52B6GxR7USk/KXs7yqGP kfT/c4CZFfOurZUXXuC3PvOme0DQmqwExtJormoG4Fy6suEFPrfhYMigTy7kSbVTCOBMjQLH +U/FFNshvg9+M/ZvaKT+0lpRvBSuG5ngsC0bO0xWsXhb6qfH2h53g4VcwFvCBL5IfqgAeUbC nGGHNcGWpmwdeb7D7ahrNZSHEUUYR7lTbjkYS01/QDOcEwNZOqDRIJUQOOUq35721VeROkdh ZmMZtFlsQeQJsWoqGrQo/kEYicVlMVOgjmOOzOa5fRb/IqlGlBn4a4me3hWthLLtMy+OOEim 6ENjntVTBQiTP/YqrxWDbCkaD7b2e9wY5N3JlRxMIQHfcHaND3PRdQSn7oHYXmJl Message-ID: Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 12:35:27 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Repeating (with minor edits for this context) what I have said on similar topics on other threads: I don't think a WhatsApp group is a good idea. The criteria that the ASF looks for in communication channels used by projects are (in no particular order): - open to all - asynchronous - available off-line - full history - searchable - archived on ASF controlled systems - low bandwidth / minimal system requirements E-mail may seem a little 'old school' at times but it is one of the few technologies that meets all of the above. Which is why most of our systems are configured to echo stuff back to the relevant mailing list. These days I'm used to an always on internet connections with speeds in the 10s of megabits where I don't need to worry about the cost (even when I am out and about) but it is worth remembering that not everyone is in that position. It wasn't really that long ago that I could sometimes be found working on Apache projects via a 9600 bits per second dial-up connection that I paid for by the second. It was perfectly possible for me to follow what was going on by connecting for a few minutes every couple of hours, syncing my email, making a few commits if I had anything to commit and then disconnecting and continuing to work off-line. If a large proportion of communication had happened via a WhatsApp like interface there is no way I would have been able to follow the project. I accept that there are times were using a 'real-time' communication channel is more efficient. However, it excludes every member of the community that isn't participating in that channel at that point in time. The default position at the ASF is that it is better for communication to be a little less efficient for a few in order for the entire community to participate. Cheers, Mark On 13/10/18 17:23, Javier Borkenztain wrote: > Hi all, +1 on one single list with tags (there are at least 6 lists 😶) > > For the non-technical contributors like me, that most of my contribution to > the community happens "out of the list", It will be useful to have only one > place of reference. > > Also, I think we need a Whatsapp group, I am a member of several Whatsapp > groups on Bitcoin and Blockchain, and they are much more efficient and fast > to communicate non-technical issues, I've created the group, you can join > it here: https://chat.whatsapp.com/BVsYOq5eOxqLrvbWnQ3Dck > > I really enjoyed the presentation > James > Dailey shared a couple of months ago, the message that we are on the "Open > Source Age" is as powerful and meaningful as ever. > > More and more Fintechs, Financial Institutions and Banks are joining our > community and they are our partners and community members, as we grow, we > need to welcome them, I here propose we can announce each new partner that > joins our global community, I think Whatsapp group is great for that and > the community to grow. > > We are changing an entire industry as a community because the community > outperforms the individuals. > > Let's keep rocking!! > Javier > > El mié., 10 oct. 2018 a las 13:00, Ed Cable () escribió: > >> Reading over the escalation guide and the advice it gave on directing >> appropriate issues/matters to the respective mailing lists, it got me >> thinking about our Fineract Dev and Fineract User lists. >> >> We are always trying to be inclusive especially around awarding merit or >> committership in valuing non-technical contributions to the project. In >> that same spirit, I worry we sometimes might be leaving out non-technical >> members of the community who might only be subscribed to the user list when >> we treat dev as the primary list for all communications (community-related, >> etc whether they're technical or not). >> >> I know we don't want to clutter the mailing lists and we don't want to >> cross-post everything across both lists but what do ewe think are some ways >> to address this? >> >> One possible option is just to consolidate the lists into dev but I don't >> think that is good long-term because as community grows we will have >> distinct technical vs. functional/design conversations happening. >> >> I know that user list is small but that might be a product of the fact that >> we direct everyone to sign up for dev because most conversations happen on >> dev >> >> Should everyone just operate under the norm that dev is the primary list >> and any public community-related matter or announcement will come through >> there and that everyone should be subscribed to that list to not miss any >> key information? >> >> Or should we just operate in the fashion of cross-posting to both lists if >> it's relevant to both audiences - that requires extra effort and ensures >> everybody receives the message but then it does dilute the discussion as >> input given on @user wouldn't be seen by @Dev >> >> CC'ing ComDev too because they probably have some good suggestions based on >> on other projects. However our community might be distinct in that we have >> a larger user-facing community than most more >> technical/infrastructure-oriented Apache projects. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Ed >> >> ---------- Forwarded message --------- >> From: Myrle Krantz >> Date: Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 11:41 PM >> Subject: Escalation guide for project issues >> To: dev >> >> >> Hey all, >> >> An escalation guide for Apache issues was just posted on >> dev@community.apache.org. I wanted to make sure our community was >> aware of this as well: >> >> https://www.apache.org/board/escalation >> >> In general, I invite you to discuss problems you see with the Fineract >> project. Discussion should be done openly, on the >> dev@fineract.apache.org list, or, in some cases, >> private@fineract.apache.org. Addressing problems early and openly >> will keep most problems from becoming too large to handle. >> >> Best Regards, >> Myrle >> Committer, Apache Fineract >> >> >> -- >> *Ed Cable* >> President/CEO, Mifos Initiative >> edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649 >> >> *Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries | *http://mifos.org >> >> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org