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To: user@cassandra.apache.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b86c6def303e005453127df archived-at: Tue, 03 Jan 2017 14:05:25 -0000 --047d7b86c6def303e005453127df Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Back in the day, HotSpot was recommended because OpenJDK had some stability and performance issues. But in 2015 or maybe 2014 I heard in a presentation (don't remember by whom) that OpenJDK is pretty on par with HotSpot for C*. But I guess the documentation was never properly updated. On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 2:50 AM, Kant Kodali wrote: > The fact that Oracle would even come up with something like this "Oracle'= s > position was that Google should have to license code from them." is just > messed up. And these kind of business practices are exactly the reason wh= y > to stay away. Of course every company is there to make money. You look at > Google or FB and see how much open source contribution they have > done. Oracle doesnt come anywhere close to that. > > On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 8:08 PM, Edward Capriolo > wrote: > >> >> >> On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 8:30 PM, Kant Kodali wrote: >> >>> This is a subjective question and of course it would turn into >>> opinionated answers and I think we should welcome that (Nothing wrong i= n >>> debating a topic). we have many such debates as SE's such as programmin= g >>> language comparisons, Architectural debates, Framework/Library debates = and >>> so on. people who don't like this conversation can simply refrain from >>> following this thread right. I don't know why they choose to Jump in if >>> they dont like a topic >>> >>> Sun is a great company no doubt! I don't know if Oracle is. Things like >>> this https://www.extremetech.com/mobile/220136-google-plans- >>> to-remove-oracles-java-apis-from-android-n is what pisses me about >>> Oracle which gives an impression that they are not up for open source. = It >>> would be awesome to see JVM running on more and more devices (not less)= so >>> Google taking away Oracle Java API's from Android is a big failure from >>> Oracle. >>> >>> JVM is a great piece of Software and by far there isn't anything yet >>> that comes close. And there are great people who worked at SUN at that = time. >>> open the JDK source code and read it. you will encounter some great >>> ideas and Algorithms. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 1:04 PM, Edward Capriolo >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 3:51 PM, Benjamin Roth >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Does this discussion really make sense any more? To me it seems it >>>>> turned opinionated and religious. From my point of view anything that= has >>>>> to be said was said. >>>>> >>>>> Am 02.01.2017 21:27 schrieb "Edward Capriolo" = : >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 11:56 AM, Eric Evans < >>>>>> john.eric.evans@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 9:15 PM, Edward Capriolo < >>>>>>> edlinuxguru@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> > "I don't really have any opinions on Oracle per say, but Cassandr= a >>>>>>> is a >>>>>>> > Free Software project and I would prefer that we not depend on >>>>>>> > commercial software, (and that's kind of what we have here, an >>>>>>> > implicit dependency)." >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > We are a bit loose here with terms "free" and "commercial". The >>>>>>> oracle JVM >>>>>>> > is open source, it is free to use and the trademark is owned by a >>>>>>> company. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Are we? There are many definitions for the word "free", only one o= f >>>>>>> which means "without cost"; I assumed it was obvious that I was >>>>>>> talking about licensing terms (and of course the implications of th= at >>>>>>> licensing). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cassandra is Free Software by virtue of the fact that it is Apache >>>>>>> Licensed. You are Free (as in Freedom) to modify and redistribute >>>>>>> it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The Oracle JVM ships with a commercial license. It is free only in >>>>>>> the sense that you are not required to pay anything to use it, (i.e= . >>>>>>> you are not Free to do much of anything other than use it to run Ja= va >>>>>>> software). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > That is not much different then using a tool for cassandra like a >>>>>>> driver >>>>>>> > hosted on github but made my a company. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It is very different IME. Cassandra requires a JVM to function, th= is >>>>>>> is a hard dependency. A driver is merely a means to make use of it= . >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > The thing about a JVM is that like a kernel you want really smart >>>>>>> dedicated >>>>>>> > people working on it. Oracle has moved the JVM forward since >>>>>>> taking over >>>>>>> > sun. You can not just manage a JVM like say the freebsd port of x >>>>>>> maintained >>>>>>> > by 3 part time dudes that all get paid to do something else. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't how to read any of this. It sounds like you're saying that= a >>>>>>> JVM is something that cannot be produced as a Free Software project= , >>>>>>> or maybe that you just really like Oracle, I'm honestly not sure. = It >>>>>>> doesn't seem relevant though, because there is in fact a Free >>>>>>> Software >>>>>>> JVM (and in addition to some mere mortals, the fine people at Oracl= e >>>>>>> do contribute to it). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Eric Evans >>>>>>> john.eric.evans@gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Are we? There are many definitions for the word "free", only one of >>>>>> which means "without cost"; I assumed it was obvious that I was >>>>>> talking about licensing terms (and of course the implications of tha= t >>>>>> licensing). >>>>>> >>>>>> Lets be clear: >>>>>> What I am saying is avoiding being loose with the word "free" >>>>>> >>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software_license >>>>>> >>>>>> Many things with the JVM are free too. Most importantly it is free >>>>>> to use. >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.java.com/en/download/faq/distribution.xml >>>>>> >>>>>> As it relates to this conversation: I am not aware of anyone running >>>>>> Cassandra that has modified upstream JVM to make Cassandra run >>>>>> better/differently *. Thus the license around the Oracle JVM is roug= hly >>>>>> meaningless to the user/developer of cassandra. >>>>>> >>>>>> * The only group I know that took an action to modify upstream was >>>>>> Acunu. They had released a modified Linux Kernel with a modified Apa= che >>>>>> Cassandra. http://cloudtweaks.com/2011/02/data-storage-start >>>>>> up-acunu-raises-3-6-million-to-launch-its-first-product/. That >>>>>> product no longer exists. >>>>>> >>>>>> "I don't how to read any of this. It sounds like you're saying that= a >>>>>> JVM is something that cannot be produced as a Free Software project,= " >>>>>> >>>>>> What I am saying is something like the JVM "could" be produced as a >>>>>> "free software project". However, the argument that I was making is = that >>>>>> the popular viable languages/(including vms or runtime to use them) = today >>>>>> including Java, C#, Go, Swift are developed by the largest tech comp= anies >>>>>> in the world, and as such I do believe a platform would be viable. >>>>>> Specifically I believe without Oracle driving Java OpenJDK would not= be >>>>>> viable. >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two specific reasons. >>>>>> 1) I do not see large costly multi-year initiatives like G1 happenin= g >>>>>> 2) Without guidance/leadership that sun/oracle I do not see new >>>>>> features that change the language like lambda's and try multi-catch >>>>>> happening in a sane way. >>>>>> >>>>>> I expanded upon #2 be discussing my experience with standards like >>>>>> c++ 11, 14,17 and attempting to take compiling working lambda code o= n linux >>>>>> GCC to microsoft visual studio and having it not compile. In my opin= ion, >>>>>> Java only wins because as a platform it is very portable as both sou= rce and >>>>>> binary code. Without leadership on that front I believe that over ti= me the >>>>>> language would suffer. >>>>>> >>>>>> "It is very different IME. Cassandra requires a JVM to function, th= is >>>>>> is a hard dependency. A driver is merely a means to make use of it.= " >>>>>> >>>>>> LOL. Sure a database with a driver is very useful. I mean it sits >>>>>> there flushing empty memtables and writing to its log file. You can = run >>>>>> nodetool ring and imagine where data would go if you could put data = into >>>>>> it. Very exciting stuff. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> It does matter in some regards. Cassandra has historically been more >>>> coupled to specific JVM's than other Java projects. Specifically, in t= he >>>> past I attempted to run Cassandra on Azul JVM and the key cache did no= t >>>> load as the key cache used some sun.misc.unsafe code that worked >>>> differently on a different JVM. (I never confirmed if this was a bug i= n >>>> oracle/azul/cassandra code) >>>> >>>> I have been burned by IceaTea and OpenJDK a few times over the years. = I >>>> do my best to install what is the "common" platform for most users. If= the >>>> project is going to take a position or bias development on one or the = other >>>> it matters. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> Oracle's position was that Google should have to licence code from them. >> >> This has been a sticking point for the last few years. After a jury foun= d >> in favor of Google, a appeals court mostly reversed that judgement. A >> petition for the Supreme Court to hear the case was rejected earlier >> this year >> , >> and the case now sits at a lower court waiting to decide on Google=E2=80= =99s fair >> use argument. In the meantime, Google is making sure this isn=E2=80=99t = an issue >> going forward. >> >> At once point Oracle released a 100+ page presentation about its case >> siting emails from people at google making statements to the effect of "= we >> are going to need to licence this (jvm) at some point (from sun)". >> >> SUN was a great company. But you know SUN was out to make money as well. >> I was a system admin for SUN hardware like SUN E450s. Some SUN systems h= ad >> "interesting features". One such "feature" was their "certified" hard >> drives with special "firmware" with the rebranded drives being 2x-3x the >> cost. See "spud brackets" and other "interesting" http://www.veryc >> omputer.com/39_3960a4e1434e7562_1.htm things you had to do with firmware >> etc. If you got caught needing support and happened to have a "non >> certified" disk you could find yourself persona non grata. >> >> Yes, SUN had beautiful hardware, os, and software. But >> 1) it was not cheap >> 2) solaris OS was not open-solaris until after they leaked the code on >> accident >> 3) the majority of solaris users (that I knew) ran the entire GNU >> toolchain side by side the solaris tool chain because Solaris had a funn= y >> way of cornering you into buying their really pricey compiler if you tri= ed >> to use the "trusted" packages >> >> I am mainly a user of the SUN/Oracle JVM. My logic for switching is >> based on the quality and frequency of releases. If I stuck with SUN thou= gh >> there "spud brackets" and "special firmware", so I will give oracle some >> leverage to drop the ball before I switch to the next thing with "open" = in >> the name :) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > --047d7b86c6def303e005453127df Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Back in the day, HotSpot was recommended because OpenJDK h= ad some stability and performance issues. But in 2015 or maybe 2014 I heard= in a presentation (don't remember by whom) that OpenJDK is pretty on p= ar with HotSpot for C*.

But I guess the documentation was never pro= perly updated.

On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 2:50 AM, Kant Kodali <kant@peernova.com&= gt; wrote:
The fa= ct that Oracle would even come up with something like this "Oracle's position was that Google should ha= ve to license code from them." is just messed up. And these kin= d of business practices are exactly the reason why to stay away. Of course = every company is there to make money. You look at Google or FB and see how = much open source contribution they have done.=C2=A0Oracle doesnt come anywh= ere close to that.=C2=A0

On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at= 8:08 PM, Edward Capriolo <edlinuxguru@gmail.com> wrote:=


On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 8:30 PM, Kant Kodali <= kant@peernova.com> wrote:
This is a sub= jective question and of course it would turn into opinionated answers and I= think we should welcome that (Nothing wrong in debating a topic). we have = many such debates as SE's such as programming language comparisons, Arc= hitectural debates, Framework/Library debates and so on. people who don'= ;t like this conversation can simply refrain from following this thread rig= ht. I don't know why they choose to Jump in if they dont like a topic

Sun is a great company no doubt! I don't know i= f Oracle is. Things like this=C2=A0https://www.extremetech.com/mobile/220136-google-plans-to-remove-oracles-java-apis-from-android-n is what pisses me ab= out Oracle which gives an impression that they are not up for open source. = It would be awesome to see JVM running on more and more devices (not less) = so Google taking away Oracle Java API's from Android is a big failure f= rom Oracle.

JVM is a great piece of Software and b= y far there isn't anything yet that comes close. And there are great pe= ople who worked at SUN at that time.
open the JDK source code= and read it. you will encounter some great ideas and Algorithms.





On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 1:04 PM= , Edward Capriolo <edlinuxguru@gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 3:51 PM, Benjamin Ro= th <benjamin.roth@jaumo.com> wrote:
Does this discussion really make sense any more? To me= it seems it turned opinionated and religious. From my point of view anythi= ng that has to be said was said.=C2=A0

=
Am 02.01.2017 21:27 schrieb "Edward Capriol= o" <edli= nuxguru@gmail.com>:


On = Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 11:56 AM, Eric Evans <john.eric.evans@gmail.co= m> wrote:
On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 9:15 PM= , Edward Capriolo <edlinuxguru@gmail.com> wrote:
> "I don't really have any opinions on Oracle per say, but Cass= andra is a
> Free Software project and I would prefer that we not depend on
> commercial software, (and that's kind of what we have here, an
> implicit dependency)."
>
> We are a bit loose here with terms "free" and "commerci= al". The oracle JVM
> is open source, it is free to use and the trademark is owned by a comp= any.

Are we?=C2=A0 There are many definitions for the word "free", onl= y one of
which means "without cost"; I assumed it was obvious that I was talking about licensing terms (and of course the implications of that
licensing).

Cassandra is Free Software by virtue of the fact that it is Apache
Licensed.=C2=A0 You are Free (as in Freedom) to modify and redistribute it.=

The Oracle JVM ships with a commercial license.=C2=A0 It is free only in the sense that you are not required to pay anything to use it, (i.e.
you are not Free to do much of anything other than use it to run Java
software).

> That is not much different then using a tool for cassandra like a driv= er
> hosted on github but made my a company.

It is very different IME.=C2=A0 Cassandra requires a JVM to function, this<= br> is a hard dependency.=C2=A0 A driver is merely a means to make use of it.
> The thing about a JVM is that like a kernel you want really smart dedi= cated
> people working on it. Oracle has moved the JVM forward since taking ov= er
> sun. You can not just manage a JVM like say the freebsd port of x main= tained
> by 3 part time dudes that all get paid to do something else.

I don't how to read any of this.=C2=A0 It sounds like you're saying= that a
JVM is something that cannot be produced as a Free Software project,
or maybe that you just really like Oracle, I'm honestly not sure.=C2=A0= It
doesn't seem relevant though, because there is in fact a Free Software<= br> JVM (and in addition to some mere mortals, the fine people at Oracle
do contribute to it).


--
Eric Evans
john.eric.ev= ans@gmail.com

Are we?=C2=A0 There are many= definitions for the word "free", only one of
= which means "without cost"; I assumed it was obvious that I was
talking about licensing terms (and of course the implicat= ions of that
licensing).

Let= s be clear:=C2=A0
What I am= saying is avoiding being loose with the word "free"
=

https://en.wikiped= ia.org/wiki/Free_software_license

Many thin= gs with the JVM are free too.=C2=A0Most importantly it is free to use.=C2=A0

https://www.= java.com/en/download/faq/distribution.xml

As it relates to this conversation: I am not aware of anyone running Cassa= ndra that has modified upstream JVM to make Cassandra run better/differentl= y *. Thus the license around the Oracle JVM is roughly meaningless to the u= ser/developer of cassandra.

* The only group I know = that took an action to modify upstream was Acunu. They had released a modif= ied Linux Kernel with a modified Apache Cassandra.=C2=A0http://cloudtweaks.com/2011/= 02/data-storage-startup-acunu-raises-3-6-million-to-launch-its-fi= rst-product/. That product no longer exists.=C2=A0

"I don't how to read any of= this.=C2=A0 It sounds like you're saying that a
JVM= is something that cannot be produced as a Free Software project,"
=
What I am saying is= something like the JVM "could" be produced as a "free softw= are project". However, the argument that I was making is that the popu= lar viable languages/(including vms or runtime to use them) today including= Java, C#, Go, Swift are developed by the largest tech companies in the wor= ld, and as such I do believe a platform would be viable. Specifically I bel= ieve without Oracle driving Java OpenJDK would not be viable.=C2=A0

= There are two specific reasons.
1) I do not see large costly multi= -year initiatives like G1 happening
2) Without guidance/leadership that = sun/oracle I do not see new features that change the language like lambda&#= 39;s and try multi-catch happening in a sane way.

I = expanded upon #2 be discussing my experience with standards like c++ 11, 14= ,17 and attempting to take compiling working lambda code on linux GCC to mi= crosoft visual studio and having it not compile. In my opinion, Java only w= ins because as a platform it is very=C2=A0portable=C2=A0as both source and = binary code. Without leadership on that front I believe that over time the = language would suffer.=C2=A0

"It is very different IME.= =C2=A0 Cassandra requires a JVM to function, this
is a hard dependency.= =C2=A0 A driver is merely a means to make use of it."

LOL. Sure a database with a driver is= very useful. I mean it sits there flushing empty memtables and writing to = its log file. You can run nodetool ring and imagine where data would go if = you could put data into it. Very exciting stuff.


It does matter in some regards. Cassandr= a has historically been more coupled to specific JVM's than other Java = projects. Specifically, in the past I attempted to run Cassandra on Azul JV= M and the key cache did not load as the key cache used some sun.misc.unsafe= code that =C2=A0worked differently on a different JVM. (I never confirmed = if this was a bug in oracle/azul/cassandra code)

I have been burned = by IceaTea and OpenJDK a few times over the years. I do my best to install = what is the "common" platform for most users. If the project is g= oing to take a position or bias development on one or the other it matters.=



=C2=A0


Oracle&= #39;s position was that Google should have to licence code from them.
This has been a sticking point fo= r the last few years. After a jury found in favor of Google, a appeals cour= t mostly reversed that judgement. A petition for the Supreme Court to hear = the case=C2=A0was rejected earlier this year, and the case now sits at a lower court waiting to decide on Google= =E2=80=99s fair use argument. In the meantime, Google is making sure this i= sn=E2=80=99t an issue going forward.

At once point Oracle released a 100+ = page presentation about its case siting emails from people at google making= statements to the effect of "we are going to need to licence this (jv= m) at some point (from sun)".=C2=A0

SUN was a great company. Bu= t you know SUN was out to make money as well. I was a system admin for SUN = hardware like SUN E450s. Some SUN systems had "interesting features&qu= ot;. One such "feature" was their "certified" hard driv= es with special "firmware" with the rebranded drives being 2x-3x = the cost. See "spud brackets" and other "interesting"= =C2=A0http://www.verycomputer.com/39_3960a4e1434= e7562_1.htm things you had to do with firmware etc. If you got cau= ght needing support and happened to have a "non certified" disk y= ou could find yourself persona non grata.

Yes, SUN had beautiful har= dware, os, and software. But
1) it was not cheap
2) solaris OS was = not open-solaris until after they leaked the code on accident
3) the ma= jority of solaris users (that I knew) ran the entire GNU toolchain side by = side the solaris tool chain because Solaris had a funny way of cornering yo= u into buying their really pricey compiler if you tried to use the "tr= usted" packages

I am mainly a user of the =C2=A0SUN/Oracle JVM.= My logic for switching is based on the quality and frequency of releases. = If I stuck with SUN though there "spud brackets" and "specia= l firmware", so I will give oracle some leverage to drop the ball befo= re I switch to the next thing with "open" in the name :)

= =C2=A0









--047d7b86c6def303e005453127df--