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From Kai Wang <dep...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Why does Cassandra recommends Oracle JVM instead of OpenJDK?
Date Tue, 03 Jan 2017 14:05:08 GMT
Back in the day, HotSpot was recommended because OpenJDK had some stability
and performance issues. But in 2015 or maybe 2014 I heard in a presentation
(don't remember by whom) that OpenJDK is pretty on par with HotSpot for C*.

But I guess the documentation was never properly updated.

On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 2:50 AM, Kant Kodali <kant@peernova.com> wrote:

> The fact that Oracle would even come up with something like this "Oracle's
> position was that Google should have to license code from them." is just
> messed up. And these kind of business practices are exactly the reason why
> to stay away. Of course every company is there to make money. You look at
> Google or FB and see how much open source contribution they have
> done. Oracle doesnt come anywhere close to that.
>
> On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 8:08 PM, Edward Capriolo <edlinuxguru@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 8:30 PM, Kant Kodali <kant@peernova.com> wrote:
>>
>>> This is a subjective question and of course it would turn into
>>> opinionated answers and I think we should welcome that (Nothing wrong in
>>> debating a topic). we have many such debates as SE's such as programming
>>> language comparisons, Architectural debates, Framework/Library debates and
>>> so on. people who don't like this conversation can simply refrain from
>>> following this thread right. I don't know why they choose to Jump in if
>>> they dont like a topic
>>>
>>> Sun is a great company no doubt! I don't know if Oracle is. Things like
>>> this https://www.extremetech.com/mobile/220136-google-plans-
>>> to-remove-oracles-java-apis-from-android-n is what pisses me about
>>> Oracle which gives an impression that they are not up for open source. It
>>> would be awesome to see JVM running on more and more devices (not less) so
>>> Google taking away Oracle Java API's from Android is a big failure from
>>> Oracle.
>>>
>>> JVM is a great piece of Software and by far there isn't anything yet
>>> that comes close. And there are great people who worked at SUN at that time.
>>> open the JDK source code and read it. you will encounter some great
>>> ideas and Algorithms.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 1:04 PM, Edward Capriolo <edlinuxguru@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 3:51 PM, Benjamin Roth <benjamin.roth@jaumo.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Does this discussion really make sense any more? To me it seems it
>>>>> turned opinionated and religious. From my point of view anything that
has
>>>>> to be said was said.
>>>>>
>>>>> Am 02.01.2017 21:27 schrieb "Edward Capriolo" <edlinuxguru@gmail.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 11:56 AM, Eric Evans <
>>>>>> john.eric.evans@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 9:15 PM, Edward Capriolo <
>>>>>>> edlinuxguru@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> > "I don't really have any opinions on Oracle per say, but
Cassandra
>>>>>>> is a
>>>>>>> > Free Software project and I would prefer that we not depend
on
>>>>>>> > commercial software, (and that's kind of what we have here,
an
>>>>>>> > implicit dependency)."
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > We are a bit loose here with terms "free" and "commercial".
The
>>>>>>> oracle JVM
>>>>>>> > is open source, it is free to use and the trademark is owned
by a
>>>>>>> company.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Are we?  There are many definitions for the word "free", only
one of
>>>>>>> which means "without cost"; I assumed it was obvious that I was
>>>>>>> talking about licensing terms (and of course the implications
of that
>>>>>>> licensing).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cassandra is Free Software by virtue of the fact that it is Apache
>>>>>>> Licensed.  You are Free (as in Freedom) to modify and redistribute
>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Oracle JVM ships with a commercial license.  It is free only
in
>>>>>>> the sense that you are not required to pay anything to use it,
(i.e.
>>>>>>> you are not Free to do much of anything other than use it to
run Java
>>>>>>> software).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > That is not much different then using a tool for cassandra
like a
>>>>>>> driver
>>>>>>> > hosted on github but made my a company.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is very different IME.  Cassandra requires a JVM to function,
this
>>>>>>> is a hard dependency.  A driver is merely a means to make use
of it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > The thing about a JVM is that like a kernel you want really
smart
>>>>>>> dedicated
>>>>>>> > people working on it. Oracle has moved the JVM forward since
>>>>>>> taking over
>>>>>>> > sun. You can not just manage a JVM like say the freebsd
port of x
>>>>>>> maintained
>>>>>>> > by 3 part time dudes that all get paid to do something else.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't how to read any of this.  It sounds like you're saying
that a
>>>>>>> JVM is something that cannot be produced as a Free Software project,
>>>>>>> or maybe that you just really like Oracle, I'm honestly not sure.
 It
>>>>>>> doesn't seem relevant though, because there is in fact a Free
>>>>>>> Software
>>>>>>> JVM (and in addition to some mere mortals, the fine people at
Oracle
>>>>>>> do contribute to it).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Eric Evans
>>>>>>> john.eric.evans@gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are we?  There are many definitions for the word "free", only one
of
>>>>>> which means "without cost"; I assumed it was obvious that I was
>>>>>> talking about licensing terms (and of course the implications of
that
>>>>>> licensing).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lets be clear:
>>>>>> What I am saying is avoiding being loose with the word "free"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software_license
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Many things with the JVM are free too. Most importantly it is free
>>>>>> to use.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.java.com/en/download/faq/distribution.xml
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As it relates to this conversation: I am not aware of anyone running
>>>>>> Cassandra that has modified upstream JVM to make Cassandra run
>>>>>> better/differently *. Thus the license around the Oracle JVM is roughly
>>>>>> meaningless to the user/developer of cassandra.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * The only group I know that took an action to modify upstream was
>>>>>> Acunu. They had released a modified Linux Kernel with a modified
Apache
>>>>>> Cassandra. http://cloudtweaks.com/2011/02/data-storage-start
>>>>>> up-acunu-raises-3-6-million-to-launch-its-first-product/. That
>>>>>> product no longer exists.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "I don't how to read any of this.  It sounds like you're saying that
a
>>>>>> JVM is something that cannot be produced as a Free Software project,"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What I am saying is something like the JVM "could" be produced as
a
>>>>>> "free software project". However, the argument that I was making
is that
>>>>>> the popular viable languages/(including vms or runtime to use them)
today
>>>>>> including Java, C#, Go, Swift are developed by the largest tech companies
>>>>>> in the world, and as such I do believe a platform would be viable.
>>>>>> Specifically I believe without Oracle driving Java OpenJDK would
not be
>>>>>> viable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are two specific reasons.
>>>>>> 1) I do not see large costly multi-year initiatives like G1 happening
>>>>>> 2) Without guidance/leadership that sun/oracle I do not see new
>>>>>> features that change the language like lambda's and try multi-catch
>>>>>> happening in a sane way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I expanded upon #2 be discussing my experience with standards like
>>>>>> c++ 11, 14,17 and attempting to take compiling working lambda code
on linux
>>>>>> GCC to microsoft visual studio and having it not compile. In my opinion,
>>>>>> Java only wins because as a platform it is very portable as both
source and
>>>>>> binary code. Without leadership on that front I believe that over
time the
>>>>>> language would suffer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "It is very different IME.  Cassandra requires a JVM to function,
this
>>>>>> is a hard dependency.  A driver is merely a means to make use of
it."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> LOL. Sure a database with a driver is very useful. I mean it sits
>>>>>> there flushing empty memtables and writing to its log file. You can
run
>>>>>> nodetool ring and imagine where data would go if you could put data
into
>>>>>> it. Very exciting stuff.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> It does matter in some regards. Cassandra has historically been more
>>>> coupled to specific JVM's than other Java projects. Specifically, in the
>>>> past I attempted to run Cassandra on Azul JVM and the key cache did not
>>>> load as the key cache used some sun.misc.unsafe code that  worked
>>>> differently on a different JVM. (I never confirmed if this was a bug in
>>>> oracle/azul/cassandra code)
>>>>
>>>> I have been burned by IceaTea and OpenJDK a few times over the years. I
>>>> do my best to install what is the "common" platform for most users. If the
>>>> project is going to take a position or bias development on one or the other
>>>> it matters.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Oracle's position was that Google should have to licence code from them.
>>
>> This has been a sticking point for the last few years. After a jury found
>> in favor of Google, a appeals court mostly reversed that judgement. A
>> petition for the Supreme Court to hear the case was rejected earlier
>> this year
>> <http://www.extremetech.com/computing/209073-supreme-court-wont-hear-googles-appeal-in-java-api-case>,
>> and the case now sits at a lower court waiting to decide on Google’s fair
>> use argument. In the meantime, Google is making sure this isn’t an issue
>> going forward.
>>
>> At once point Oracle released a 100+ page presentation about its case
>> siting emails from people at google making statements to the effect of "we
>> are going to need to licence this (jvm) at some point (from sun)".
>>
>> SUN was a great company. But you know SUN was out to make money as well.
>> I was a system admin for SUN hardware like SUN E450s. Some SUN systems had
>> "interesting features". One such "feature" was their "certified" hard
>> drives with special "firmware" with the rebranded drives being 2x-3x the
>> cost. See "spud brackets" and other "interesting" http://www.veryc
>> omputer.com/39_3960a4e1434e7562_1.htm things you had to do with firmware
>> etc. If you got caught needing support and happened to have a "non
>> certified" disk you could find yourself persona non grata.
>>
>> Yes, SUN had beautiful hardware, os, and software. But
>> 1) it was not cheap
>> 2) solaris OS was not open-solaris until after they leaked the code on
>> accident
>> 3) the majority of solaris users (that I knew) ran the entire GNU
>> toolchain side by side the solaris tool chain because Solaris had a funny
>> way of cornering you into buying their really pricey compiler if you tried
>> to use the "trusted" packages
>>
>> I am mainly a user of the  SUN/Oracle JVM. My logic for switching is
>> based on the quality and frequency of releases. If I stuck with SUN though
>> there "spud brackets" and "special firmware", so I will give oracle some
>> leverage to drop the ball before I switch to the next thing with "open" in
>> the name :)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

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