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From Benedict Elliott Smith <bened...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Cassandra data model right definition
Date Mon, 03 Oct 2016 16:37:51 GMT
... and my response can be summed up as "you are not parsing English
correctly."  The word "like" does not mean what you think it means in this
context.  It does not mean "close relative."  It is constrained to the
similarities expressed, and no others.  You don't seem to be reading any of
my responses about this, though, so I'm not sure parsing is your issue.

Postgresql has had arrays for years, and all RDBMS (pretty much) avoid
persisting nulls in exactly the same way C* does - encoding their absence
in the row header.

I empathise with the recent unsubscriber.



On 3 October 2016 at 15:53, Edward Capriolo <edlinuxguru@gmail.com> wrote:

> My original point can be summed up as:
>
> Do not define cassandra in terms SMILES & METAPHORS. Such words include
> "like" and "close relative".
>
> For the specifics:
>
> Any relational db could (and I'm sure one does!) allow for sparse fields
> as well. MySQL can be backed by rocksdb now, does that make it not a row
> store?
>
> Lets draw some lines, a relational database is clearly defined.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_F._Codd
>
> Codd's theorem <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codd%27s_theorem>, a result
> proven in his seminal work on the relational model, equates the expressive
> power of relational algebra
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relational_algebra> and relational calculus
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relational_calculus> (both of which,
> lacking recursion, are strictly less powerful thanfirst-order logic
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-order_logic>).[*citation needed
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed>*]
>
> As the relational model started to become fashionable in the early 1980s,
> Codd fought a sometimes bitter campaign to prevent the term being misused
> by database vendors who had merely added a relational veneer to older
> technology. As part of this campaign, he published his 12 rules
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codd%27s_12_rules> to define what
> constituted a relational database. This made his position in IBM
> increasingly difficult, so he left to form his own consulting company with
> Chris Date and others.
>
> Cassandra is not a relational database.
>
> I am have attempted to illustrate that a "row store" is defined as well. I
> do not believe Cassandra is a "row store".
>
> "Just because it uses log structured storage, sparse fields, and
> semi-flexible collections doesn't disqualify it from calling it a "row
> store""
>
> What is the definition of "row store". Is it a logical construct or a
> physical one?
>
> Why isn't mongo DB a "row store"? I can drop a schema on top of mongo and
> present it as rows and columns. It seems to pass the litmus test being
> presented.
>
> https://github.com/mongodb/mongo-hadoop/wiki/Hive-Usage
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 10:02 AM, Jonathan Haddad <jon@jonhaddad.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Sorry Ed, but you're really stretching here. A table in Cassandra is
>> structured by a schema with the data for each row stored together in each
>> data file. Just because it uses log structured storage, sparse fields, and
>> semi-flexible collections doesn't disqualify it from calling it a "row
>> store"
>>
>> Postgres added flexible storage through hstore, I don't hear anyone
>> arguing that it needs to be renamed.
>>
>> Any relational db could (and I'm sure one does!) allow for sparse fields
>> as well. MySQL can be backed by rocksdb now, does that make it not a row
>> store?
>>
>> You're arguing that everything is wrong but you're not proposing an
>> alternative, which is not productive.
>> On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 9:40 AM Edward Capriolo <edlinuxguru@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Also every piece of techincal information that describes a rowstore
>>>
>>> http://cs-www.cs.yale.edu/homes/dna/talks/abadi-sigmod08-slides.pdf
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Column-oriented_DBMS#Row-oriented_systems
>>>
>>> Does it like this:
>>>
>>> 001:10,Smith,Joe,40000;
>>> 002:12,Jones,Mary,50000;
>>> 003:11,Johnson,Cathy,44000;
>>> 004:22,Jones,Bob,55000;
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The never depict a scenario where a the data looks like this on disk:
>>>
>>> 001:10,Smith
>>>
>>> 001:10,40000;
>>>
>>> Which is much closer to how Cassandra *stores* it's data.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 30, 2016 at 5:12 PM, Benedict Elliott Smith <
>>> benedict@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Absolutely.  A "partitioned row store" is exactly what I would call it.
>>> As it happens, our README thinks the same, which is fantastic.
>>>
>>> I thought I'd take a look at the rest of our cohort, and didn't get far
>>> before disappointment.  HBase literally calls itself a "
>>> *column-oriented* store" - which is so totally wrong it's
>>> simultaneously hilarious and tragic.
>>>
>>> I guess we can't blame the wider internet for misunderstanding/misnaming
>>> us poor "wide column stores" if even one of the major examples doesn't know
>>> what it, itself, is!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 30 September 2016 at 21:47, Jonathan Haddad <jon@jonhaddad.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> +1000 to what Benedict says. I usually call it a "partitioned row store"
>>> which usually needs some extra explanation but is more accurate than
>>> "column family" or whatever other thrift era terminology people still use.
>>> On Fri, Sep 30, 2016 at 1:53 PM DuyHai Doan <doanduyhai@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I used to present Cassandra as a NoSQL datastore with "distributed"
>>> table. This definition is closer to CQL and has some academic background
>>> (distributed hash table).
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 30, 2016 at 7:43 PM, Benedict Elliott Smith <
>>> benedict@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Cassandra is not a "wide column store" anymore.  It has a schema.  Only
>>> thrift users no longer think they have a schema (though they do), and
>>> thrift is being deprecated.
>>>
>>> I really wish everyone would kill the term "wide column store" with
>>> fire.  It seems to have never meant anything beyond "schema-less,
>>> row-oriented", and a "column store" means literally the opposite of this.
>>>
>>> Not only that, but people don't even seem to realise the term "column
>>> store" existed long before "wide column store" and the latter is often
>>> abbreviated to the former, as here: http://www.planetcassandra.org
>>> /what-is-nosql/
>>>
>>> Since it no longer applies, let's all agree as a community to forget
>>> this awful nomenclature ever existed.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 30 September 2016 at 18:09, Joaquin Casares <
>>> joaquin@thelastpickle.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Mehdi,
>>>
>>> I can help clarify a few things.
>>>
>>> As Carlos said, Cassandra is a Wide Column Store. Theoretically a row
>>> can have 2 billion columns, but in practice it shouldn't have more than 100
>>> million columns.
>>>
>>> Cassandra partitions data to certain nodes based on the partition
>>> key(s), but does provide the option of setting zero or more clustering
>>> keys. Together, the partition key(s) and clustering key(s) form the primary
>>> key.
>>>
>>> When writing to Cassandra, you will need to provide the full primary
>>> key, however, when reading from Cassandra, you only need to provide the
>>> full partition key.
>>>
>>> When you only provide the partition key for a read operation, you're
>>> able to return all columns that exist on that partition with low latency.
>>> These columns are displayed as "CQL rows" to make it easier to reason about.
>>>
>>> Consider the schema:
>>>
>>> CREATE TABLE foo (
>>>   bar uuid,
>>>
>>>   boz uuid,
>>>
>>>   baz timeuuid,
>>>   data1 text,
>>>
>>>   data2 text,
>>>
>>>   PRIMARY KEY ((bar, boz), baz)
>>>
>>> );
>>>
>>>
>>> When you write to Cassandra you will need to send bar, boz, and baz and
>>> optionally data*, if it's relevant for that CQL row. If you chose not to
>>> define a data* field for a particular CQL row, then nothing is stored nor
>>> allocated on disk. But I wouldn't consider that caveat to be "schema-less".
>>>
>>> However, all writes to the same bar/boz will end up on the same
>>> Cassandra replica set (a configurable number of nodes) and be stored on the
>>> same place(s) on disk within the SSTable(s). And on disk, each field that's
>>> not a partition key is stored as a column, including clustering keys (this
>>> is optimized in Cassandra 3+, but now we're getting deep into internals).
>>>
>>> In this way you can get fast responses for all activity for bar/boz
>>> either over time, or for a specific time, with roughly the same number of
>>> disk seeks, with varying lengths on the disk scans.
>>>
>>> Hope that helps!
>>>
>>> Joaquin Casares
>>> Consultant
>>> Austin, TX
>>>
>>> Apache Cassandra Consulting
>>> http://www.thelastpickle.com
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 30, 2016 at 11:40 AM, Carlos Alonso <info@mrcalonso.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Cassandra is a Wide Column Store http://db-engines.com/en
>>> /system/Cassandra
>>>
>>> Carlos Alonso | Software Engineer | @calonso
>>> <https://twitter.com/calonso>
>>>
>>> On 30 September 2016 at 18:24, Mehdi Bada <mehdi.bada@dbi-services.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I have a theoritical question:
>>> - Is Apache Cassandra really a column store?
>>> Column store mean storing the data as column rather than as a rows.
>>>
>>> In fact C* store the data as row, and data is partionned with row key.
>>>
>>> Finally, for me, Cassandra is a row oriented schema less DBMS.... Is it
>>> true for you also???
>>>
>>> Many thanks in advance for your reply
>>>
>>> Best Regards
>>> Mehdi Bada
>>> ----
>>>
>>> *Mehdi Bada* | Consultant
>>> Phone: +41 32 422 96 00 | Mobile: +41 79 928 75 48 | Fax: +41 32 422 96
>>> 15
>>> dbi services, Rue de la Jeunesse 2, CH-2800 Delémont
>>> mehdi.bada@dbi-services.com
>>> www.dbi-services.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *⇒ dbi services is recruiting Oracle & SQL Server experts ! – Join the
>>> team
>>> <http://www.dbi-services.com/fr/dbi-services-et-ses-collaborateurs/offres-emplois-opportunites-carrieres/>*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>

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