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From Flavio Junqueira <...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Zookeeper with SSL release date
Date Thu, 17 Mar 2016 15:10:34 GMT

> On 17 Mar 2016, at 14:12, Patrick Hunt <phunt@apache.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 12:59 AM, Flavio Junqueira <fpj@apache.org> wrote:
>> I was thinking server side actually. If the switch is off, any attempt to reconfig
is a no-op and the server would log a warning. If you we want to propagate the error up, then
yeah, we need to start worrying about compatibility and such.
> Are you saying someone wants to run with reconfig inaccessible, but
> doesn't want to have to enable ACL/auth? That actually does make sense
> to me from a "feature switch" perspective.

I think you meant to disagree here and say "doesn't make sense". It's a good point, but for
clarity, are you suggesting we disable it via ACLs? 

>> I also would rather see us address it, although I can fully understand that there
are other fixes and improvements in 3.5 that people are interested in.
> My thinking is more that reconfig changed a lot of core functionality.
> It's not a "surface" feature. As such just disabling access doesn't
> affect quality. I don't see this as a concern for reconfig alone,
> there were a number of such changes in 3.5 and that's really my
> concern - overall core quality vs quality of one specific
> change/feature.

Agreed that disabling doesn't affect quality, but possibly decouples the decision of moving
from alpha to beta independent of the security review of reconfig.


>>> On 17 Mar 2016, at 00:46, Patrick Hunt <phunt@apache.org> wrote:
>>> I'm not a huge fan of turning it off to be honest. Also just turning
>>> it off at the API level wouldn't be enough, we'd need to turn it off
>>> at the protocol level (otw it could still be accessed).
>>> I'd rather see us address it than kick it down the road. It's a major
>>> feature of 3.5.
>>> Patrick
>>> On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Flavio Junqueira <fpj@apache.org> wrote:
>>>> The main issue to sort out is stability of the API. There is a security concern
around the fact that clients can freely reconfigure the ensemble. If we follow the plan that
Pat proposed some time ago:
>>>> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/zookeeper-dev/201407.mbox/%3CCANLc_9KG6-Dhm=wwfuwzNioGK70pg+iHMHPigYfJDSLf9-eq6Q@mail.gmail.com%3E
>>>> Locking the API is the main step to move it to beta. Sorting out bugs is
definitely necessary, but it isn't the main thing that is keeping 3.5 in alpha.
>>>> About making it experimental, I was raising the option of having a switch
that disables the API calls, not the code. The reason why that could work is that anyone using
3.5 who uses the "experimental" API must explicit turn on the switch and enable the calls.
If they do it, they need to be aware that the API can change.
>>>> I must say that I haven't really looked closely into doing it, and I'm not
even entirely convinced that this is a good idea, but since Jason raised the point, I'm exploring
>>>> -Flavio
>>>>> On 16 Mar 2016, at 20:59, Alexander Shraer <shralex@gmail.com>
>>>>> Looking at the list of ~50 blocker and critical bugs in ZooKeeper, only
>>>>> are related to reconfig. Given this, and the fact that it is run in
>>>>> production since 2012 in multiple companies, I don't think its more
>>>>> unstable than any other part of ZooKeeper.
>>>>> There are multiple reconfig-related bugs that turned out really difficult
>>>>> to debug without access to the actual system or at least to the Hudson
>>>>> machines where some tests are failing. In the past, Michi and I physically
>>>>> went to Hortonworks to debug one such issue, but this is of course not
>>>>> good method, and we weren't able to arrange such a visit again.
>>>>> Regarding making it optional - the reconfig logic has several different
>>>>> parts, some would be really difficult to disable using a configuration
>>>>> parameter. But the actual dynamic expansion of the cluster is triggered
>>>>> the reconfig command, so it should not affect users who don't invoke
>>>>> On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 1:09 PM, Flavio P JUNQUEIRA <fpj@apache.org>
>>>>>> I suppose we could give it a try. How do other folks feel about it?
>>>>>> -Flavio
>>>>>> On 16 Mar 2016 19:52, "Jason Rosenberg" <jbr@squareup.com>
>>>>>>> So, you could enable the dynamic reconfiguration feature behind
a config
>>>>>>> option, and document that it should only be enabled experimentally,
>>>>>> at
>>>>>>> your own risk.  Keep it off by default.  Allow only static config
>>>>>>> default, until it's stable?
>>>>>>> Jason
>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Flavio Junqueira <fpj@apache.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi Jason,
>>>>>>>> The consumer in Kafka is pretty independent from the core
>>>>>>>> that's how that project manages to make such a separation.
We don't
>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> the same with ZooKeeper as the feature we are talking about
is part of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> server and the only way I see of doing what you say is to
turn off
>>>>>>>> features. More specifically, we'd need to disable the reconfig
API and
>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>> not allow any change to the configuration, even though the
code is
>>>>>> there.
>>>>>>>> Reconfig here refers to the ability of changing the configuration
of an
>>>>>>>> ensemble (e.g., changing the set of servers).
>>>>>>>> -Flavio
>>>>>>>>> On 16 Mar 2016, at 19:14, Jason Rosenberg <jbr@squareup.com>
>>>>>>>>> So, it would seem sensible to me to have a release where
all features
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> stable, except where noted.  E.g. mark certain features
as only
>>>>>> 'alpha
>>>>>>>>> quality', e.g. the 're-config feature'.  (I assume it's
possible to
>>>>>>>> happily
>>>>>>>>> use 3.5.X without exercising the unstable re-config bits?).
>>>>>>>>> There's precedent for doing this sort of thing in other
>>>>>> e.g.
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> Kafka, they've had several release where a new "Consumer
API" is
>>>>>>> shipped
>>>>>>>>> that is available for beta-testing, but you can still
just use the
>>>>>>> older
>>>>>>>>> stable consumer api, etc.
>>>>>>>>> Jason
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 2:01 PM, powell molleti
>>>>>>>> <powellm79@yahoo.com.invalid
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Doug,
>>>>>>>>>> Is 3.5 being an alpha release preventing you from
using it?. Or have
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>> run into issues with it?. In general perhaps ZK 3.5
being labeled as
>>>>>>>> alpha
>>>>>>>>>> might not be fair, since it is far more stable then
what most people
>>>>>>>>>> associate an alpha release to be.
>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps if you do not use re-config feature may be
it will just work
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> you?.
>>>>>>>>>> There are many examples of 3.5.X being used in productions
from my
>>>>>>>> limited
>>>>>>>>>> knowledge.
>>>>>>>>>> ThanksPowell.
>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 16, 2016 2:44 AM, Flavio Junqueira
>>>>>>>> fpj@apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> None of us expected the reconfig changes to take
this long to
>>>>>>> stabilize.
>>>>>>>>>> Until we get there, I don't think we can do anything
else with 3.5.
>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>> best bet we have is to work harder to bring 3.5 into
a stable rather
>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>> trying to work around it.
>>>>>>>>>> There are lots of people interested in seeing 3.5
stable, and if we
>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>> everyone to contribute more patches and code reviews,
we should be
>>>>>>> able
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> do it sooner. After all, it is a community based
effort, so the
>>>>>>>> community
>>>>>>>>>> shouldn't rely on just 2-3 people doing the work.
>>>>>>>>>> -Flavio
>>>>>>>>>>> On 15 Mar 2016, at 17:28, Chris Nauroth <cnauroth@hortonworks.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Doug, I forgot to respond to your question about
3.4.  Since 3.4 is
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> stable maintenance line, we are very conservative
>>>>>> back-porting
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> it.  Our policy is to limit back-ports to critical
bug fixes and
>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>> introduce any new features in the 3.4 line. 
This is a matter of
>>>>>>>> managing
>>>>>>>>>>> risk.
>>>>>>>>>>> Jason, your question about release cadence is
a fair one.  If it's
>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>>> consolation, we are now taking the approach of
trying to limit the
>>>>>>>> scope
>>>>>>>>>>> of anything new introduced in 3.5 too.  That
would allow us to
>>>>>> focus
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>> stabilization: resolving blocker bugs and freezing
public APIs.  I
>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>> this will help us accelerate the releases into
beta and eventual
>>>>>> GA.
>>>>>>>>>>> I am new to ZooKeeper release management, so
I'd like to hear
>>>>>>> thoughts
>>>>>>>>>>> from more experienced committers and PMC members
about your
>>>>>> proposal
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> try to cut a stable release for a limited subset
of what is in
>>>>>>>> branch-3.5
>>>>>>>>>>> now.  My instinct is that it would be challenging
to cherry-pick
>>>>>> out
>>>>>>>>>>> pieces of branch-3.5 piecemeal at this point.
 This would become
>>>>>>>> another
>>>>>>>>>>> release line for an already resource-constrained
volunteer staff to
>>>>>>>>>>> manage.  I'd prefer to dedicate those limited
resources to overall
>>>>>>> 3.5
>>>>>>>>>>> stabilization.  Also, a 3.5 release in which
certain features
>>>>>>>> "vanished"
>>>>>>>>>>> because of not meeting some stability criteria
would be
>>>>>> undesirable.
>>>>>>>>>>> --Chris Nauroth
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/15/16, 10:12 AM, "Jason Rosenberg" <jbr@squareup.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Can you say whether some parts of 3.5.X are
more stable than
>>>>>> others
>>>>>>>>>> (e.g.
>>>>>>>>>>>> if we don't care about certain new features,
is it relatively
>>>>>>> stable)?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Would it be possible to cut out a version
that only has the bits
>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>> are stable (and release that)?
>>>>>>>>>>>> From that timeline, and the historic release
cadence, it would
>>>>>> seem
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>> years away before we get to the stable release?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jason
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 1:06 PM, Chris Nauroth
>>>>>>>>>> cnauroth@hortonworks.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello Doug,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for your interest in the SSL feature!
>>>>>>>>>>>>> At this point, I think we're still pretty
far away from
>>>>>> declaring a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> stable
>>>>>>>>>>>>> release in the 3.5 line.  I don't think
we're close enough that
>>>>>>>> anyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>>>>> offer a reliable ETA.  This is an earlier
thread that describes
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> high-level strategy for release planning
in the 3.5 line:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://s.apache.org/ADK1
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The next step is a 3.5.2-alpha release.
 We're working on
>>>>>>> resolving a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> few
>>>>>>>>>>>>> more blockers before we produce a release
candidate.  Hopefully
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>>> get done in the next few weeks.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --Chris Nauroth
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/15/16, 9:39 AM, "Doug" <itsbehind@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know it's only been a few months,
but I was wondering if there
>>>>>>>> was a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ballpark release date for a stable
version of 3.5.1. Or is there
>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chance
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the SSL feature would be added to
3.4.8? Just another person
>>>>>>> looking
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that feature in a stable version.
Thanks for all you do! :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>>> http://zookeeper-user.578899.n2.nabble.com/Zookeeper-with-SSL-release-dat
>>>>>>>>>>>>> e
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -tp7581744p7582136.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from the zookeeper-user mailing
list archive at Nabble.com.

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