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From Henry Robinson <he...@cloudera.com>
Subject Re: Leader Elections
Date Mon, 20 Jul 2009 21:46:55 GMT
I think partial subscription for an Observer would be easy to do - I don't
think it will make it into 368 which is big enough already, but it would not
be an enormous amount of work. The main thing to do is to figure out the
protocol for subscription; probably just a new message type. That said, it
would require some careful stepping around the sync code in order to make
sure that the the Observer knows what the latest zxid is even if it doesn't
know the full history. Very do-able though.

'Offline' modes for parts of the graph are more challenging; we would need
to think hard about the right way to implement this.

I had imagined that Observers would be a good integration point for a
third-party pubsub system (like TIB or something) via a plugin mechanism. In
my opinion I think it's important for ZK not to try to become a general
pubsub framework which is not its core goal, although I can't speak for the
committers. That said, rudimentary subscription is a good idea to prevent
unnecessary WAN traffic.

The idea of having ensembles subscribe to each other is a bit tricky;
essentially it would require one ensemble to mirror the other with one
ensemble acting as the master with a netsplit putting the slave ensemble
into read-only mode (or removing the mounted subtree). Again, I think it
could be done but would be a big feature.

Henry

On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 10:21 PM, Scott Carey <scott@richrelevance.com>wrote:

> Todd has put it much more eloquently.  Comments below:
>
> On 7/20/09 11:50 AM, "Todd Greenwood" <toddg@audiencescience.com> wrote:
>
> > Flavio, Ted, Henry, Scott, this would perfectly well for my use case
> > provided:
> >
> > SINGLE ENSEMBLE:
> >         GROUP A : ZK Servers w/ read/write AND Leader Elections
> >         GROUP B : ZK Servers w/ read/write W/O Leader Elections
> >
> > So, we can craft this via Observers and Hiererarchial Quorum groups?
> > Great. Problem solved.
> >
> > When will this be production ready? :o)
> >
> > --------------------
> >
> > Scott brought up a multi-feature that is very interesting for me.
> > Namely:
> >
> > 1. Offline ZK servers that sync & merge on reconnect
> >
> > The offline servers seems conceptually simple, it's kind of like a
> > messaging system. However, the merge and resolve step when two servers
> > reconnect might be challenging. Cool idea though.
>
> Yes, this is very useful for WAN use cases.  I've already done something
> like it with a hack:
> Ensemble A "Master/Central"
> "Remote Proxy" N -- embeds its own ZK, and runs two clients.  One Client
> connects to Ensemble A and watches a partial sub-graph, propagating that
> into its local embedded ZK server.  This subgraph is read-only for those
> that access the Proxy.  A second client accesses the local ZK server and
> monitors a different subgraph, which it propagates to the Master ensemble.
> This is writeable by clients accessing the Proxy and on the Master ensemble
> is only written to by this Proxy.
>
> The above is all application enforced. There are constraints on what sort
> of
> things can be built with this, but for the subset of use cases I need over
> WAN, its more than enough.
>
> >
> > 2. Partial memory graph subscriptions
> >
> > The second idea is partial memory graph subscriptions. This would enable
> > virtual ensembles to interract on the same physical ensemble. For my use
> > case, this would prevent unnecessary cross talk between nodes on a WAN,
> > allowing me to define the subsets of the memory graph that need to be
> > replicated, and to whom. This would be a huge scalability win for WAN
> > use cases.
>
> Yes, a more general partial graph subscription / ownership framework would
> allow for not just better WAN scalability but also (and more critically
> IMO)
> higher reliability.  Often, some large subset of application functionality
> is local to one network, and a minority is global and in need of WAN
> communication.  In this case, when the WAN breaks one wishes that local
> functionality to continue to function, and only those parts truly dependant
> on external events to be interrupted.
> Currently one has to have separate ensembles to partition data and clunky
> 'bridge' code to intercommunicate.
>
> It would certainly be more natural if two ZK ensembles could register with
> each other, in a 'partial sub-graph publish/subscribe' framework.  It could
> almost be like file system mounting:
> To subscribe:
> subscribe otherEnsemble:port/path/to/otherstuff  /localpath/to/mount/into
>
> Publishing is the same thing -- think of it as a request for a remote ZK
> cluster to subscribe to the local ZK's data.
>
>
>
>
> >
> > -Todd
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Scott Carey [mailto:scott@richrelevance.com]
> > Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 11:00 AM
> > To: zookeeper-user@hadoop.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: Leader Elections
> >
> > Observers would be awesome especially with a couple enhancements /
> > extensions:
> >
> > An option for the observers to enter a special state if the WAN link
> > goes down to the "master" cluster.  A read-only option would be great.
> > However, allowing certain types of writes to continue on a limited basis
> > would be highly valuable as well.  An observer could "own" a special
> > node and its subnodes.  Only these subnodes would be writable by the
> > observer when there was a session break to the master cluster, and the
> > master cluster would take all the changes when the link is
> > reestablished.  Essentially, it is a portion of the hierarchy that is
> > writable only by a specitfic observer, and read-only for others.
> > The purpose of this would be for when the WAN link goes down to the
> > "master" ZKs for certain types of use cases - status updates or other
> > changes local to the observer that are strictly read-only outside the
> > Observer's 'realm'.
> >
> >
> > On 7/19/09 12:16 PM, "Henry Robinson" <henry@cloudera.com> wrote:
> >
> > You can. See ZOOKEEPER-368 - at first glance it sounds like observers
> > will
> > be a good fit for your requirements.
> >
> > Do bear in mind that the patch on the jira is only for discussion
> > purposes;
> > I would not consider it currently fit for production use. I hope to put
> > up a
> > much better patch this week.
> >
> > Henry
> >
> > On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 7:38 PM, Ted Dunning <ted.dunning@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Can you submit updates via an observer?
> >>
> >> On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 6:38 AM, Flavio Junqueira <fpj@yahoo-inc.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> 2- Observers: you could have one computing center containing an
> > ensemble
> >>> and observers around the edge just learning committed values.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Ted Dunning, CTO
> >> DeepDyve
> >>
> >
> >
>
>

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