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From Andor Molnar <an...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Github & Jira notifications
Date Mon, 13 May 2019 15:33:17 GMT
Without responding to this, let’s clarify what emails are we talking about:

- Jenkins build notifications: failures / successes,
- Jira notifications: Created, Updated, Status change, Commented, etc.
- Github notifications: opened/closed pull request, commented on pull request, etc.

Researching a bit around it seems like that issues@ mailing list is a common pattern across
some Hadoop projects:
https://hbase.apache.org/mailing-lists.html <https://hbase.apache.org/mailing-lists.html>
https://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html <https://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html>
https://kafka.apache.org/contact <https://kafka.apache.org/contact>

But not on:
https://hive.apache.org/mailing_lists.html <https://hive.apache.org/mailing_lists.html>
https://oozie.apache.org/mail-lists.html <https://oozie.apache.org/mail-lists.html>

Regards,
Andor



> On 2019. May 13., at 16:43, Patrick Hunt <phunt@apache.org> wrote:
> 
> I seem to remember that in the early days of apache the intent was for all
> developers to participate in development of the project. MLs were used for
> this initially and there has been concern in the past about the move to
> JIRA as it removes critical discussions from the general dev flow. JIRA
> discussions are cc'd to an ML for just this reason. Granted another aspect
> of this mirroring is for archival purposes.
> 
> As such the intent is for developers to participate in development
> discussion. It sounds like you're turning this on it's head.
> 
> Isn't this why we have a user list? For folks that are only casually
> interested in project activity?
> 
> Patrick
> 
> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 3:31 AM Andor Molnar <andor@apache.org> wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> Sorry for starting the vote too early, for some reason I thought it’s a
>> straightforward thing, but the concerns are valid.
>> 
>> I believe this is a good thing to do now, because the activity in
>> ZooKeeper community has reached a level which the dev list with all
>> notifications included hasn’t been prepared for. I see emails every now and
>> then from people who fed up with the flood of notification emails and
>> decide to unsubscribe instead of taking the hassle of dealing with email
>> filters.
>> 
>> *Filters*
>> Pretty much everything which can be done with separate mailing lists, can
>> be achieved by some clever email filters too. Though I think having
>> multiple mailing lists is technologically a better distinction for emails:
>> separate archives, different retention policies, less email to be delivered
>> (filters working on client side) and more convenient for new subscribers.
>> 
>> *Markmail*
>> I’m a power user of markmail too, but I’m not sure how it works. Tbh I
>> cannot see the benefits of searching for automated emails from Gitbox, but
>> I’m sure we can set it up properly, if needed.
>> 
>> *Existing users*
>> It’s completely valid that on the flip side we’ll mess up the config of
>> existing users. I don’t we can avoid that or do this in a backward
>> compatible way, but I think it’s worth to pay this price. What will happen
>> to them?
>> - Stop receiving emails from Jira and Github,
>> - Get the announcement on the dev list: hey, from now on you need to
>> subscribe from a@zk.org if you want to be notified about A and b@zk.org
>> if you want to be notified about B, etc.
>> I don’t think we can automatically subscribe them for the new lists, it
>> sounds like against the law (GDPR?), but I’m not a lawyer.
>> 
>> My 2 cents.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Andor
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 2019. May 13., at 9:25, Norbert Kalmar <nkalmar@cloudera.com.INVALID>
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Well, +1 (non-binding) from my side (if it wasn't clear from my email ).
>>> I agree that anyone following the dev list will have a chance to sign-up
>>> for the new list, basically that's all old users have to do. Maybe
>>> delete/modify some filters.
>>> And anyone "semi-following" the ZK thread, I figure doing nothing (not
>>> signing up for the new list) is fine, as they are mostly interested in
>> user
>>> emails, votes etc., and those email will remain in the current list.
>>> 
>>> But of course I can only speak for myself, and this sounds like a good
>> idea
>>> to me.
>>> 
>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 9:31 PM Lars Francke <lars.francke@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> re: existing users
>>>> I'd expect they read this mailing list, and if they do they should see
>> the
>>>> announcement that things change and need to re-subscribe, if they don't
>>>> follow the list anyway then...well nothing really lost.
>>>> I understand the concern but I'm afraid there's nothing we can do
>> there. I
>>>> don't think it's trivial to automatically subscribe people to a new
>> list,
>>>> we'd need to ask INFRA if it's even possible.
>>>> 
>>>> re: new users: Yes, as a new subscriber it's definitely VERY
>> overwhelming
>>>> (especially the gitbox mails) and it's also nowadays almost unexpected
>>>> because most other projects (at least the ones I follow) have the
>>>> separation of mailing lists already
>>>> 
>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 6:28 PM Norbert Kalmar
>>>> <nkalmar@cloudera.com.invalid>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> I agree we have a lot of "noise", as others, I have created the filters
>>>> and
>>>>> since forgot about them.
>>>>> But it is overwhelming for a new subscriber, and filters always carry
>> the
>>>>> dangers of false positive filtering. i.e. filter out someone's email.
>>>>> I think someone joining the dev-zookeeper mailing list is always a good
>>>>> thing, and we shouldn't scare them away :)
>>>>> For the existing users, I guess they would have to sign up for the new
>>>>> list.
>>>>> 
>>>>> It would be nice, but I'm not even sure of all the dependent stuff
>>>> (Patrick
>>>>> just mentioned marmail for example).
>>>>> 
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Norbert
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 10:06 AM Lars Francke <lars.francke@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sorry, I didn't mean to comment on the tracking sites in the VOTE
>>>> thread.
>>>>>> That belongs here.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Either way: Markmail etc. shouldn't be broken. Yes, they may take
a
>>>> while
>>>>>> before they index stuff but the "canonical" tracking site is
>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org and that indexes new stuff automatically
>>>>> anwyay.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 9:55 AM Lars Francke <lars.francke@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I'm subscribed to around 40-60 Apache Mailing lists. If the
>>>>> notifications
>>>>>>> were in a separate list I could just subscribe to what I want
instead
>>>>> of
>>>>>>> creating 80 or so filters.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I think I disagree, I don't have to create filters if the dev
list
>>>> only
>>>>>>> contains "discussions".
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> Lars
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 12:38 AM Patrick Hunt <phunt@apache.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> You're going to have to have a filter regardless. Why change
now?
>>>>> Also,
>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>> you do change it, be sure to update all of the tracking sites
such
>>>> as
>>>>>>>> markmail (etc...), I find this invaluable.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Patrick
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 1:18 AM Lars Francke <
>>>> lars.francke@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> INFRA can do it all :)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> See for example this:
>>>>>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-17915>
for Jira
>>>>>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18296>
for Github
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> The necessary mailing lists can be created here <
>>>>>>>>> https://selfserve.apache.org/>
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I'd be happy to file the issues myself but it's better
if it comes
>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> PMC member.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>> Lars
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 10:00 AM Andor Molnar
>>>>>>>> <andor@cloudera.com.invalid>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Lars,
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for the hands, yes, indeed we are interested!
>>>>>>>>>> Currently I'm using all kind of magic filters to
separate signal
>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>> noise.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> What do we need to do?
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>> Andor
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 9:51 AM Lars Francke <
>>>>>> lars.francke@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> I've recently subscribed to the dev mailinglist
but am
>>>>> overwhelmed
>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> number of github notifications and about to unsubscribe
again.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> But maybe you're interested in moving the github
& jira
>>>>>>>> notifications
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> different mailing list? I did a quick search
for on the
>>>> mailing
>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>>>>> archives but couldn't find another thread about
it.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> The way we've done it at the Apache Training
project now for
>>>>>>>> example is
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> send all Github notifications to notifications@
and all Jira
>>>>>>>> messages
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> issues@ we only send Jira open and close mails
to dev@
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> This lowers the volume significantly and works
just fine.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Is this something you'd be interested in?
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>> Lars
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>> 
>> 


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