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From Andor Molnar <an...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Github & Jira notifications
Date Thu, 30 May 2019 16:32:25 GMT
Would somebody please update the Mailing Lists page on the website:

https://zookeeper.apache.org/lists.html <https://zookeeper.apache.org/lists.html>

Thanks,
Andor



> On 2019. May 23., at 16:24, Patrick Hunt <phunt@apache.org> wrote:
> 
> Nope.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Patrick
> 
> On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 1:35 AM Lars Francke <lars.francke@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Me neither. I'm happy to keep the vote open a bit longer, we're in no rush.
>> 
>> Patrick, do you have anything to add?
>> 
>> On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 1:15 PM Andor Molnar <andor@apache.org> wrote:
>> 
>>> I’m not sure whether we have convinced Patrick entirely.
>>> Before casting my vote, I’d be happy if we could reach consensus in the
>>> community with this change, not just majority.
>>> 
>>> Reason is that I rather feel it a nice-to-have improvement, not critical.
>>> 
>>> Andor
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 2019. May 17., at 17:05, Flavio Junqueira <fpj@apache.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> To add to this conversation, we have 5 mailing lists as of today:
>>>> 
>>>> dev@z.a.o
>>>> commits@z.a.o
>>>> private@z.a.o
>>>> security@z.a.o
>>>> user@z.a.o
>>>> 
>>>> The commits@ one was historically supposed to be for notifications.
>>>> 
>>>> -Flavio
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On 17 May 2019, at 16:50, Lars Francke <lars.francke@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Alright, I will do so, thank you
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 11:46 AM Norbert Kalmar
>>>>> <nkalmar@cloudera.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> I think we should start a vote.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Lars, feel free to start it, as it is your initiative, you can place
>>> your
>>>>>> argument in the initial email.
>>>>>> Thanks for bringing this up!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Norbert
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 11:38 AM Lars Francke <
>> lars.francke@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I don't really have anything else to add to this conversation.
I
>> agree
>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> Norbert & Andor.
>>>>>>> Separating the lists is (slowly) becoming the standard at the
ASF in
>>> the
>>>>>>> projects I participate in and it makes it easier for newcomers.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Do we want to put this to a vote or abandon this?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 5:33 PM Andor Molnar <andor@apache.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Without responding to this, let’s clarify what emails are
we
>> talking
>>>>>>> about:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> - Jenkins build notifications: failures / successes,
>>>>>>>> - Jira notifications: Created, Updated, Status change, Commented,
>>> etc.
>>>>>>>> - Github notifications: opened/closed pull request, commented
on
>> pull
>>>>>>>> request, etc.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Researching a bit around it seems like that issues@ mailing
list
>> is
>>> a
>>>>>>>> common pattern across some Hadoop projects:
>>>>>>>> https://hbase.apache.org/mailing-lists.html <
>>>>>>>> https://hbase.apache.org/mailing-lists.html>
>>>>>>>> https://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html <
>>>>>>>> https://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html>
>>>>>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/contact <https://kafka.apache.org/contact
>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> But not on:
>>>>>>>> https://hive.apache.org/mailing_lists.html <
>>>>>>>> https://hive.apache.org/mailing_lists.html>
>>>>>>>> https://oozie.apache.org/mail-lists.html <
>>>>>>>> https://oozie.apache.org/mail-lists.html>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> Andor
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 2019. May 13., at 16:43, Patrick Hunt <phunt@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I seem to remember that in the early days of apache the
intent was
>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>> developers to participate in development of the project.
MLs were
>>>>>> used
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> this initially and there has been concern in the past
about the
>> move
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> JIRA as it removes critical discussions from the general
dev flow.
>>>>>> JIRA
>>>>>>>>> discussions are cc'd to an ML for just this reason. Granted
>> another
>>>>>>>> aspect
>>>>>>>>> of this mirroring is for archival purposes.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> As such the intent is for developers to participate in
development
>>>>>>>>> discussion. It sounds like you're turning this on it's
head.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Isn't this why we have a user list? For folks that are
only
>> casually
>>>>>>>>> interested in project activity?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Patrick
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 3:31 AM Andor Molnar <andor@apache.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Sorry for starting the vote too early, for some reason
I thought
>>>>>> it’s
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> straightforward thing, but the concerns are valid.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I believe this is a good thing to do now, because
the activity in
>>>>>>>>>> ZooKeeper community has reached a level which the
dev list with
>> all
>>>>>>>>>> notifications included hasn’t been prepared for.
I see emails
>> every
>>>>>>> now
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> then from people who fed up with the flood of notification
emails
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> decide to unsubscribe instead of taking the hassle
of dealing
>> with
>>>>>>> email
>>>>>>>>>> filters.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> *Filters*
>>>>>>>>>> Pretty much everything which can be done with separate
mailing
>>>>>> lists,
>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>> be achieved by some clever email filters too. Though
I think
>> having
>>>>>>>>>> multiple mailing lists is technologically a better
distinction
>> for
>>>>>>>> emails:
>>>>>>>>>> separate archives, different retention policies,
less email to be
>>>>>>>> delivered
>>>>>>>>>> (filters working on client side) and more convenient
for new
>>>>>>>> subscribers.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> *Markmail*
>>>>>>>>>> I’m a power user of markmail too, but I’m not
sure how it works.
>>>>>> Tbh I
>>>>>>>>>> cannot see the benefits of searching for automated
emails from
>>>>>> Gitbox,
>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>> I’m sure we can set it up properly, if needed.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> *Existing users*
>>>>>>>>>> It’s completely valid that on the flip side we’ll
mess up the
>>> config
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> existing users. I don’t we can avoid that or do
this in a
>> backward
>>>>>>>>>> compatible way, but I think it’s worth to pay this
price. What
>> will
>>>>>>>> happen
>>>>>>>>>> to them?
>>>>>>>>>> - Stop receiving emails from Jira and Github,
>>>>>>>>>> - Get the announcement on the dev list: hey, from
now on you need
>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> subscribe from a@zk.org if you want to be notified
about A and
>>>>>>> b@zk.org
>>>>>>>>>> if you want to be notified about B, etc.
>>>>>>>>>> I don’t think we can automatically subscribe them
for the new
>>> lists,
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>> sounds like against the law (GDPR?), but I’m not
a lawyer.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> My 2 cents.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>> Andor
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2019. May 13., at 9:25, Norbert Kalmar
>>>>>>> <nkalmar@cloudera.com.INVALID
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Well, +1 (non-binding) from my side (if it wasn't
clear from my
>>>>>> email
>>>>>>>> ).
>>>>>>>>>>> I agree that anyone following the dev list will
have a chance to
>>>>>>>> sign-up
>>>>>>>>>>> for the new list, basically that's all old users
have to do.
>> Maybe
>>>>>>>>>>> delete/modify some filters.
>>>>>>>>>>> And anyone "semi-following" the ZK thread, I
figure doing
>> nothing
>>>>>>> (not
>>>>>>>>>>> signing up for the new list) is fine, as they
are mostly
>>> interested
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>>>>>> emails, votes etc., and those email will remain
in the current
>>>>>> list.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> But of course I can only speak for myself, and
this sounds like
>> a
>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>> idea
>>>>>>>>>>> to me.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 9:31 PM Lars Francke
<
>>>>>> lars.francke@gmail.com
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> re: existing users
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd expect they read this mailing list, and
if they do they
>>> should
>>>>>>> see
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> announcement that things change and need
to re-subscribe, if
>> they
>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>> follow the list anyway then...well nothing
really lost.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I understand the concern but I'm afraid there's
nothing we can
>> do
>>>>>>>>>> there. I
>>>>>>>>>>>> don't think it's trivial to automatically
subscribe people to a
>>>>>> new
>>>>>>>>>> list,
>>>>>>>>>>>> we'd need to ask INFRA if it's even possible.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> re: new users: Yes, as a new subscriber it's
definitely VERY
>>>>>>>>>> overwhelming
>>>>>>>>>>>> (especially the gitbox mails) and it's also
nowadays almost
>>>>>>> unexpected
>>>>>>>>>>>> because most other projects (at least the
ones I follow) have
>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> separation of mailing lists already
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 6:28 PM Norbert Kalmar
>>>>>>>>>>>> <nkalmar@cloudera.com.invalid>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree we have a lot of "noise", as
others, I have created
>> the
>>>>>>>> filters
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> since forgot about them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But it is overwhelming for a new subscriber,
and filters
>> always
>>>>>>> carry
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dangers of false positive filtering.
i.e. filter out someone's
>>>>>>> email.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think someone joining the dev-zookeeper
mailing list is
>> always
>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>>>>> thing, and we shouldn't scare them away
:)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> For the existing users, I guess they
would have to sign up for
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> new
>>>>>>>>>>>>> list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It would be nice, but I'm not even sure
of all the dependent
>>>>>> stuff
>>>>>>>>>>>> (Patrick
>>>>>>>>>>>>> just mentioned marmail for example).
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Norbert
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 10:06 AM Lars
Francke <
>>>>>>>> lars.francke@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry, I didn't mean to comment on
the tracking sites in the
>>>>>> VOTE
>>>>>>>>>>>> thread.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That belongs here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Either way: Markmail etc. shouldn't
be broken. Yes, they may
>>>>>> take
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> before they index stuff but the "canonical"
tracking site is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org and that
indexes new stuff
>>>>>> automatically
>>>>>>>>>>>>> anwyay.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 9:55 AM Lars
Francke <
>>>>>>>> lars.francke@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm subscribed to around 40-60
Apache Mailing lists. If the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> notifications
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were in a separate list I could
just subscribe to what I
>> want
>>>>>>>> instead
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> creating 80 or so filters.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think I disagree, I don't have
to create filters if the
>> dev
>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contains "discussions".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lars
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 12:38
AM Patrick Hunt <
>>>>>> phunt@apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You're going to have to have
a filter regardless. Why
>> change
>>>>>>> now?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you do change it, be sure
to update all of the tracking
>> sites
>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> markmail (etc...), I find
this invaluable.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Patrick
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 1:18
AM Lars Francke <
>>>>>>>>>>>> lars.francke@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> INFRA can do it all :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> See for example this:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-17915>
for
>>> Jira
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18296>
for
>>>>>> Github
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The necessary mailing
lists can be created here <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://selfserve.apache.org/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd be happy to file
the issues myself but it's better if
>> it
>>>>>>>> comes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PMC member.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lars
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019
at 10:00 AM Andor Molnar
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <andor@cloudera.com.invalid>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Lars,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for the
hands, yes, indeed we are interested!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Currently I'm using
all kind of magic filters to separate
>>>>>>> signal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> noise.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do we need to
do?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Andor
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019
at 9:51 AM Lars Francke <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lars.francke@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've recently
subscribed to the dev mailinglist but am
>>>>>>>>>>>>> overwhelmed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of github
notifications and about to unsubscribe
>>>>>>> again.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But maybe you're
interested in moving the github & jira
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notifications
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different mailing
list? I did a quick search for on the
>>>>>>>>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> archives but
couldn't find another thread about it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The way we've
done it at the Apache Training project now
>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> example is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send all Github
notifications to notifications@ and all
>>>>>> Jira
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> messages
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issues@ we only
send Jira open and close mails to dev@
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This lowers the
volume significantly and works just
>> fine.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is this something
you'd be interested in?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lars
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 


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