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From Flavio Junqueira <...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Github & Jira notifications
Date Fri, 17 May 2019 15:05:21 GMT
To add to this conversation, we have 5 mailing lists as of today:

dev@z.a.o
commits@z.a.o
private@z.a.o
security@z.a.o
user@z.a.o

The commits@ one was historically supposed to be for notifications.

-Flavio 


> On 17 May 2019, at 16:50, Lars Francke <lars.francke@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Alright, I will do so, thank you
> 
> On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 11:46 AM Norbert Kalmar
> <nkalmar@cloudera.com.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> I think we should start a vote.
>> 
>> Lars, feel free to start it, as it is your initiative, you can place your
>> argument in the initial email.
>> Thanks for bringing this up!
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Norbert
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 11:38 AM Lars Francke <lars.francke@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> I don't really have anything else to add to this conversation. I agree
>> with
>>> Norbert & Andor.
>>> Separating the lists is (slowly) becoming the standard at the ASF in the
>>> projects I participate in and it makes it easier for newcomers.
>>> 
>>> Do we want to put this to a vote or abandon this?
>>> 
>>> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 5:33 PM Andor Molnar <andor@apache.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Without responding to this, let’s clarify what emails are we talking
>>> about:
>>>> 
>>>> - Jenkins build notifications: failures / successes,
>>>> - Jira notifications: Created, Updated, Status change, Commented, etc.
>>>> - Github notifications: opened/closed pull request, commented on pull
>>>> request, etc.
>>>> 
>>>> Researching a bit around it seems like that issues@ mailing list is a
>>>> common pattern across some Hadoop projects:
>>>> https://hbase.apache.org/mailing-lists.html <
>>>> https://hbase.apache.org/mailing-lists.html>
>>>> https://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html <
>>>> https://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html>
>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/contact <https://kafka.apache.org/contact>
>>>> 
>>>> But not on:
>>>> https://hive.apache.org/mailing_lists.html <
>>>> https://hive.apache.org/mailing_lists.html>
>>>> https://oozie.apache.org/mail-lists.html <
>>>> https://oozie.apache.org/mail-lists.html>
>>>> 
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Andor
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On 2019. May 13., at 16:43, Patrick Hunt <phunt@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> I seem to remember that in the early days of apache the intent was
>> for
>>>> all
>>>>> developers to participate in development of the project. MLs were
>> used
>>>> for
>>>>> this initially and there has been concern in the past about the move
>> to
>>>>> JIRA as it removes critical discussions from the general dev flow.
>> JIRA
>>>>> discussions are cc'd to an ML for just this reason. Granted another
>>>> aspect
>>>>> of this mirroring is for archival purposes.
>>>>> 
>>>>> As such the intent is for developers to participate in development
>>>>> discussion. It sounds like you're turning this on it's head.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Isn't this why we have a user list? For folks that are only casually
>>>>> interested in project activity?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Patrick
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 3:31 AM Andor Molnar <andor@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sorry for starting the vote too early, for some reason I thought
>> it’s
>>> a
>>>>>> straightforward thing, but the concerns are valid.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I believe this is a good thing to do now, because the activity in
>>>>>> ZooKeeper community has reached a level which the dev list with all
>>>>>> notifications included hasn’t been prepared for. I see emails every
>>> now
>>>> and
>>>>>> then from people who fed up with the flood of notification emails
>> and
>>>>>> decide to unsubscribe instead of taking the hassle of dealing with
>>> email
>>>>>> filters.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> *Filters*
>>>>>> Pretty much everything which can be done with separate mailing
>> lists,
>>>> can
>>>>>> be achieved by some clever email filters too. Though I think having
>>>>>> multiple mailing lists is technologically a better distinction for
>>>> emails:
>>>>>> separate archives, different retention policies, less email to be
>>>> delivered
>>>>>> (filters working on client side) and more convenient for new
>>>> subscribers.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> *Markmail*
>>>>>> I’m a power user of markmail too, but I’m not sure how it works.
>> Tbh I
>>>>>> cannot see the benefits of searching for automated emails from
>> Gitbox,
>>>> but
>>>>>> I’m sure we can set it up properly, if needed.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> *Existing users*
>>>>>> It’s completely valid that on the flip side we’ll mess up the
config
>>> of
>>>>>> existing users. I don’t we can avoid that or do this in a backward
>>>>>> compatible way, but I think it’s worth to pay this price. What
will
>>>> happen
>>>>>> to them?
>>>>>> - Stop receiving emails from Jira and Github,
>>>>>> - Get the announcement on the dev list: hey, from now on you need
to
>>>>>> subscribe from a@zk.org if you want to be notified about A and
>>> b@zk.org
>>>>>> if you want to be notified about B, etc.
>>>>>> I don’t think we can automatically subscribe them for the new lists,
>>> it
>>>>>> sounds like against the law (GDPR?), but I’m not a lawyer.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> My 2 cents.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Andor
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 2019. May 13., at 9:25, Norbert Kalmar
>>> <nkalmar@cloudera.com.INVALID
>>>>> 
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Well, +1 (non-binding) from my side (if it wasn't clear from
my
>> email
>>>> ).
>>>>>>> I agree that anyone following the dev list will have a chance
to
>>>> sign-up
>>>>>>> for the new list, basically that's all old users have to do.
Maybe
>>>>>>> delete/modify some filters.
>>>>>>> And anyone "semi-following" the ZK thread, I figure doing nothing
>>> (not
>>>>>>> signing up for the new list) is fine, as they are mostly interested
>>> in
>>>>>> user
>>>>>>> emails, votes etc., and those email will remain in the current
>> list.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> But of course I can only speak for myself, and this sounds like
a
>>> good
>>>>>> idea
>>>>>>> to me.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 9:31 PM Lars Francke <
>> lars.francke@gmail.com
>>>> 
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> re: existing users
>>>>>>>> I'd expect they read this mailing list, and if they do they
should
>>> see
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> announcement that things change and need to re-subscribe,
if they
>>>> don't
>>>>>>>> follow the list anyway then...well nothing really lost.
>>>>>>>> I understand the concern but I'm afraid there's nothing we
can do
>>>>>> there. I
>>>>>>>> don't think it's trivial to automatically subscribe people
to a
>> new
>>>>>> list,
>>>>>>>> we'd need to ask INFRA if it's even possible.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> re: new users: Yes, as a new subscriber it's definitely VERY
>>>>>> overwhelming
>>>>>>>> (especially the gitbox mails) and it's also nowadays almost
>>> unexpected
>>>>>>>> because most other projects (at least the ones I follow)
have the
>>>>>>>> separation of mailing lists already
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 6:28 PM Norbert Kalmar
>>>>>>>> <nkalmar@cloudera.com.invalid>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I agree we have a lot of "noise", as others, I have created
the
>>>> filters
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> since forgot about them.
>>>>>>>>> But it is overwhelming for a new subscriber, and filters
always
>>> carry
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> dangers of false positive filtering. i.e. filter out
someone's
>>> email.
>>>>>>>>> I think someone joining the dev-zookeeper mailing list
is always
>> a
>>>> good
>>>>>>>>> thing, and we shouldn't scare them away :)
>>>>>>>>> For the existing users, I guess they would have to sign
up for
>> the
>>>> new
>>>>>>>>> list.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> It would be nice, but I'm not even sure of all the dependent
>> stuff
>>>>>>>> (Patrick
>>>>>>>>> just mentioned marmail for example).
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Norbert
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 10:06 AM Lars Francke <
>>>> lars.francke@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Sorry, I didn't mean to comment on the tracking sites
in the
>> VOTE
>>>>>>>> thread.
>>>>>>>>>> That belongs here.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Either way: Markmail etc. shouldn't be broken. Yes,
they may
>> take
>>> a
>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>> before they index stuff but the "canonical" tracking
site is
>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org and that indexes new stuff
>> automatically
>>>>>>>>> anwyay.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 9:55 AM Lars Francke <
>>>> lars.francke@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm subscribed to around 40-60 Apache Mailing
lists. If the
>>>>>>>>> notifications
>>>>>>>>>>> were in a separate list I could just subscribe
to what I want
>>>> instead
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> creating 80 or so filters.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> I think I disagree, I don't have to create filters
if the dev
>>> list
>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>>> contains "discussions".
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>> Lars
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 12:38 AM Patrick Hunt
<
>> phunt@apache.org>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> You're going to have to have a filter regardless.
Why change
>>> now?
>>>>>>>>> Also,
>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>> you do change it, be sure to update all of
the tracking sites
>>> such
>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>> markmail (etc...), I find this invaluable.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Patrick
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 1:18 AM Lars Francke
<
>>>>>>>> lars.francke@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> INFRA can do it all :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> See for example this:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-17915>
for Jira
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18296>
for
>> Github
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The necessary mailing lists can be created
here <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://selfserve.apache.org/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd be happy to file the issues myself
but it's better if it
>>>> comes
>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> PMC member.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lars
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 10:00 AM Andor
Molnar
>>>>>>>>>>>> <andor@cloudera.com.invalid>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Lars,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for the hands, yes, indeed
we are interested!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Currently I'm using all kind of magic
filters to separate
>>> signal
>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> noise.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do we need to do?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Andor
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 9:51 AM Lars
Francke <
>>>>>>>>>> lars.francke@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've recently subscribed to the
dev mailinglist but am
>>>>>>>>> overwhelmed
>>>>>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of github notifications
and about to unsubscribe
>>> again.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But maybe you're interested in
moving the github & jira
>>>>>>>>>>>> notifications
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different mailing list? I did
a quick search for on the
>>>>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> archives but couldn't find another
thread about it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The way we've done it at the
Apache Training project now
>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> example is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send all Github notifications
to notifications@ and all
>> Jira
>>>>>>>>>>>> messages
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issues@ we only send Jira open
and close mails to dev@
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This lowers the volume significantly
and works just fine.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is this something you'd be interested
in?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lars
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 


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