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From Patrick Hunt <ph...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Github & Jira notifications
Date Thu, 23 May 2019 14:24:48 GMT
Nope.

Regards,

Patrick

On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 1:35 AM Lars Francke <lars.francke@gmail.com> wrote:

> Me neither. I'm happy to keep the vote open a bit longer, we're in no rush.
>
> Patrick, do you have anything to add?
>
> On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 1:15 PM Andor Molnar <andor@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > I’m not sure whether we have convinced Patrick entirely.
> > Before casting my vote, I’d be happy if we could reach consensus in the
> > community with this change, not just majority.
> >
> > Reason is that I rather feel it a nice-to-have improvement, not critical.
> >
> > Andor
> >
> >
> >
> > > On 2019. May 17., at 17:05, Flavio Junqueira <fpj@apache.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > To add to this conversation, we have 5 mailing lists as of today:
> > >
> > > dev@z.a.o
> > > commits@z.a.o
> > > private@z.a.o
> > > security@z.a.o
> > > user@z.a.o
> > >
> > > The commits@ one was historically supposed to be for notifications.
> > >
> > > -Flavio
> > >
> > >
> > >> On 17 May 2019, at 16:50, Lars Francke <lars.francke@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Alright, I will do so, thank you
> > >>
> > >> On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 11:46 AM Norbert Kalmar
> > >> <nkalmar@cloudera.com.invalid> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> I think we should start a vote.
> > >>>
> > >>> Lars, feel free to start it, as it is your initiative, you can place
> > your
> > >>> argument in the initial email.
> > >>> Thanks for bringing this up!
> > >>>
> > >>> Regards,
> > >>> Norbert
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 11:38 AM Lars Francke <
> lars.francke@gmail.com>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> I don't really have anything else to add to this conversation.
I
> agree
> > >>> with
> > >>>> Norbert & Andor.
> > >>>> Separating the lists is (slowly) becoming the standard at the ASF
in
> > the
> > >>>> projects I participate in and it makes it easier for newcomers.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Do we want to put this to a vote or abandon this?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 5:33 PM Andor Molnar <andor@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> Without responding to this, let’s clarify what emails are
we
> talking
> > >>>> about:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> - Jenkins build notifications: failures / successes,
> > >>>>> - Jira notifications: Created, Updated, Status change, Commented,
> > etc.
> > >>>>> - Github notifications: opened/closed pull request, commented
on
> pull
> > >>>>> request, etc.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Researching a bit around it seems like that issues@ mailing
list
> is
> > a
> > >>>>> common pattern across some Hadoop projects:
> > >>>>> https://hbase.apache.org/mailing-lists.html <
> > >>>>> https://hbase.apache.org/mailing-lists.html>
> > >>>>> https://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html <
> > >>>>> https://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html>
> > >>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/contact <https://kafka.apache.org/contact
> >
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> But not on:
> > >>>>> https://hive.apache.org/mailing_lists.html <
> > >>>>> https://hive.apache.org/mailing_lists.html>
> > >>>>> https://oozie.apache.org/mail-lists.html <
> > >>>>> https://oozie.apache.org/mail-lists.html>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Regards,
> > >>>>> Andor
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> On 2019. May 13., at 16:43, Patrick Hunt <phunt@apache.org>
> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I seem to remember that in the early days of apache the
intent was
> > >>> for
> > >>>>> all
> > >>>>>> developers to participate in development of the project.
MLs were
> > >>> used
> > >>>>> for
> > >>>>>> this initially and there has been concern in the past about
the
> move
> > >>> to
> > >>>>>> JIRA as it removes critical discussions from the general
dev flow.
> > >>> JIRA
> > >>>>>> discussions are cc'd to an ML for just this reason. Granted
> another
> > >>>>> aspect
> > >>>>>> of this mirroring is for archival purposes.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> As such the intent is for developers to participate in
development
> > >>>>>> discussion. It sounds like you're turning this on it's
head.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Isn't this why we have a user list? For folks that are
only
> casually
> > >>>>>> interested in project activity?
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Patrick
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 3:31 AM Andor Molnar <andor@apache.org>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Hi,
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Sorry for starting the vote too early, for some reason
I thought
> > >>> it’s
> > >>>> a
> > >>>>>>> straightforward thing, but the concerns are valid.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I believe this is a good thing to do now, because the
activity in
> > >>>>>>> ZooKeeper community has reached a level which the dev
list with
> all
> > >>>>>>> notifications included hasn’t been prepared for.
I see emails
> every
> > >>>> now
> > >>>>> and
> > >>>>>>> then from people who fed up with the flood of notification
emails
> > >>> and
> > >>>>>>> decide to unsubscribe instead of taking the hassle
of dealing
> with
> > >>>> email
> > >>>>>>> filters.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> *Filters*
> > >>>>>>> Pretty much everything which can be done with separate
mailing
> > >>> lists,
> > >>>>> can
> > >>>>>>> be achieved by some clever email filters too. Though
I think
> having
> > >>>>>>> multiple mailing lists is technologically a better
distinction
> for
> > >>>>> emails:
> > >>>>>>> separate archives, different retention policies, less
email to be
> > >>>>> delivered
> > >>>>>>> (filters working on client side) and more convenient
for new
> > >>>>> subscribers.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> *Markmail*
> > >>>>>>> I’m a power user of markmail too, but I’m not sure
how it works.
> > >>> Tbh I
> > >>>>>>> cannot see the benefits of searching for automated
emails from
> > >>> Gitbox,
> > >>>>> but
> > >>>>>>> I’m sure we can set it up properly, if needed.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> *Existing users*
> > >>>>>>> It’s completely valid that on the flip side we’ll
mess up the
> > config
> > >>>> of
> > >>>>>>> existing users. I don’t we can avoid that or do this
in a
> backward
> > >>>>>>> compatible way, but I think it’s worth to pay this
price. What
> will
> > >>>>> happen
> > >>>>>>> to them?
> > >>>>>>> - Stop receiving emails from Jira and Github,
> > >>>>>>> - Get the announcement on the dev list: hey, from now
on you need
> > to
> > >>>>>>> subscribe from a@zk.org if you want to be notified
about A and
> > >>>> b@zk.org
> > >>>>>>> if you want to be notified about B, etc.
> > >>>>>>> I don’t think we can automatically subscribe them
for the new
> > lists,
> > >>>> it
> > >>>>>>> sounds like against the law (GDPR?), but I’m not
a lawyer.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> My 2 cents.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Regards,
> > >>>>>>> Andor
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> On 2019. May 13., at 9:25, Norbert Kalmar
> > >>>> <nkalmar@cloudera.com.INVALID
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Well, +1 (non-binding) from my side (if it wasn't
clear from my
> > >>> email
> > >>>>> ).
> > >>>>>>>> I agree that anyone following the dev list will
have a chance to
> > >>>>> sign-up
> > >>>>>>>> for the new list, basically that's all old users
have to do.
> Maybe
> > >>>>>>>> delete/modify some filters.
> > >>>>>>>> And anyone "semi-following" the ZK thread, I figure
doing
> nothing
> > >>>> (not
> > >>>>>>>> signing up for the new list) is fine, as they are
mostly
> > interested
> > >>>> in
> > >>>>>>> user
> > >>>>>>>> emails, votes etc., and those email will remain
in the current
> > >>> list.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> But of course I can only speak for myself, and
this sounds like
> a
> > >>>> good
> > >>>>>>> idea
> > >>>>>>>> to me.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 9:31 PM Lars Francke <
> > >>> lars.francke@gmail.com
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> re: existing users
> > >>>>>>>>> I'd expect they read this mailing list, and
if they do they
> > should
> > >>>> see
> > >>>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>>>> announcement that things change and need to
re-subscribe, if
> they
> > >>>>> don't
> > >>>>>>>>> follow the list anyway then...well nothing
really lost.
> > >>>>>>>>> I understand the concern but I'm afraid there's
nothing we can
> do
> > >>>>>>> there. I
> > >>>>>>>>> don't think it's trivial to automatically subscribe
people to a
> > >>> new
> > >>>>>>> list,
> > >>>>>>>>> we'd need to ask INFRA if it's even possible.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> re: new users: Yes, as a new subscriber it's
definitely VERY
> > >>>>>>> overwhelming
> > >>>>>>>>> (especially the gitbox mails) and it's also
nowadays almost
> > >>>> unexpected
> > >>>>>>>>> because most other projects (at least the ones
I follow) have
> the
> > >>>>>>>>> separation of mailing lists already
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 6:28 PM Norbert Kalmar
> > >>>>>>>>> <nkalmar@cloudera.com.invalid>
> > >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> I agree we have a lot of "noise", as others,
I have created
> the
> > >>>>> filters
> > >>>>>>>>> and
> > >>>>>>>>>> since forgot about them.
> > >>>>>>>>>> But it is overwhelming for a new subscriber,
and filters
> always
> > >>>> carry
> > >>>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>>>>> dangers of false positive filtering. i.e.
filter out someone's
> > >>>> email.
> > >>>>>>>>>> I think someone joining the dev-zookeeper
mailing list is
> always
> > >>> a
> > >>>>> good
> > >>>>>>>>>> thing, and we shouldn't scare them away
:)
> > >>>>>>>>>> For the existing users, I guess they would
have to sign up for
> > >>> the
> > >>>>> new
> > >>>>>>>>>> list.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> It would be nice, but I'm not even sure
of all the dependent
> > >>> stuff
> > >>>>>>>>> (Patrick
> > >>>>>>>>>> just mentioned marmail for example).
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Regards,
> > >>>>>>>>>> Norbert
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 10:06 AM Lars Francke
<
> > >>>>> lars.francke@gmail.com>
> > >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Sorry, I didn't mean to comment on
the tracking sites in the
> > >>> VOTE
> > >>>>>>>>> thread.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> That belongs here.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Either way: Markmail etc. shouldn't
be broken. Yes, they may
> > >>> take
> > >>>> a
> > >>>>>>>>> while
> > >>>>>>>>>>> before they index stuff but the "canonical"
tracking site is
> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org and that indexes
new stuff
> > >>> automatically
> > >>>>>>>>>> anwyay.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 9:55 AM Lars
Francke <
> > >>>>> lars.francke@gmail.com>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm subscribed to around 40-60
Apache Mailing lists. If the
> > >>>>>>>>>> notifications
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> were in a separate list I could
just subscribe to what I
> want
> > >>>>> instead
> > >>>>>>>>>> of
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> creating 80 or so filters.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> I think I disagree, I don't have
to create filters if the
> dev
> > >>>> list
> > >>>>>>>>> only
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> contains "discussions".
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Lars
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 12:38 AM
Patrick Hunt <
> > >>> phunt@apache.org>
> > >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> You're going to have to have
a filter regardless. Why
> change
> > >>>> now?
> > >>>>>>>>>> Also,
> > >>>>>>>>>>> if
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> you do change it, be sure to
update all of the tracking
> sites
> > >>>> such
> > >>>>>>>>> as
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> markmail (etc...), I find this
invaluable.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Patrick
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 1:18
AM Lars Francke <
> > >>>>>>>>> lars.francke@gmail.com>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> INFRA can do it all :)
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> See for example this:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-17915>
for
> > Jira
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18296>
for
> > >>> Github
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The necessary mailing lists
can be created here <
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://selfserve.apache.org/>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd be happy to file the
issues myself but it's better if
> it
> > >>>>> comes
> > >>>>>>>>>>> from
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> a
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> PMC member.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lars
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at
10:00 AM Andor Molnar
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> <andor@cloudera.com.invalid>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Lars,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for the hands,
yes, indeed we are interested!
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Currently I'm using
all kind of magic filters to separate
> > >>>> signal
> > >>>>>>>>>>> from
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> noise.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do we need to
do?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Andor
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019
at 9:51 AM Lars Francke <
> > >>>>>>>>>>> lars.francke@gmail.com>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've recently subscribed
to the dev mailinglist but am
> > >>>>>>>>>> overwhelmed
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> by
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of github
notifications and about to unsubscribe
> > >>>> again.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But maybe you're
interested in moving the github & jira
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> notifications
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different mailing
list? I did a quick search for on the
> > >>>>>>>>> mailing
> > >>>>>>>>>>> list
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> archives but couldn't
find another thread about it.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The way we've done
it at the Apache Training project now
> > >>> for
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> example is
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send all Github
notifications to notifications@ and all
> > >>> Jira
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> messages
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issues@ we only
send Jira open and close mails to dev@
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This lowers the
volume significantly and works just
> fine.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is this something
you'd be interested in?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lars
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >
> >
> >
>

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