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From Lars Francke <lars.fran...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Github & Jira notifications
Date Fri, 17 May 2019 14:50:00 GMT
Alright, I will do so, thank you

On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 11:46 AM Norbert Kalmar
<nkalmar@cloudera.com.invalid> wrote:

> I think we should start a vote.
>
> Lars, feel free to start it, as it is your initiative, you can place your
> argument in the initial email.
> Thanks for bringing this up!
>
> Regards,
> Norbert
>
>
> On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 11:38 AM Lars Francke <lars.francke@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I don't really have anything else to add to this conversation. I agree
> with
> > Norbert & Andor.
> > Separating the lists is (slowly) becoming the standard at the ASF in the
> > projects I participate in and it makes it easier for newcomers.
> >
> > Do we want to put this to a vote or abandon this?
> >
> > On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 5:33 PM Andor Molnar <andor@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > > Without responding to this, let’s clarify what emails are we talking
> > about:
> > >
> > > - Jenkins build notifications: failures / successes,
> > > - Jira notifications: Created, Updated, Status change, Commented, etc.
> > > - Github notifications: opened/closed pull request, commented on pull
> > > request, etc.
> > >
> > > Researching a bit around it seems like that issues@ mailing list is a
> > > common pattern across some Hadoop projects:
> > > https://hbase.apache.org/mailing-lists.html <
> > > https://hbase.apache.org/mailing-lists.html>
> > > https://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html <
> > > https://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html>
> > > https://kafka.apache.org/contact <https://kafka.apache.org/contact>
> > >
> > > But not on:
> > > https://hive.apache.org/mailing_lists.html <
> > > https://hive.apache.org/mailing_lists.html>
> > > https://oozie.apache.org/mail-lists.html <
> > > https://oozie.apache.org/mail-lists.html>
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Andor
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > On 2019. May 13., at 16:43, Patrick Hunt <phunt@apache.org> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I seem to remember that in the early days of apache the intent was
> for
> > > all
> > > > developers to participate in development of the project. MLs were
> used
> > > for
> > > > this initially and there has been concern in the past about the move
> to
> > > > JIRA as it removes critical discussions from the general dev flow.
> JIRA
> > > > discussions are cc'd to an ML for just this reason. Granted another
> > > aspect
> > > > of this mirroring is for archival purposes.
> > > >
> > > > As such the intent is for developers to participate in development
> > > > discussion. It sounds like you're turning this on it's head.
> > > >
> > > > Isn't this why we have a user list? For folks that are only casually
> > > > interested in project activity?
> > > >
> > > > Patrick
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 3:31 AM Andor Molnar <andor@apache.org>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Hi,
> > > >>
> > > >> Sorry for starting the vote too early, for some reason I thought
> it’s
> > a
> > > >> straightforward thing, but the concerns are valid.
> > > >>
> > > >> I believe this is a good thing to do now, because the activity in
> > > >> ZooKeeper community has reached a level which the dev list with all
> > > >> notifications included hasn’t been prepared for. I see emails every
> > now
> > > and
> > > >> then from people who fed up with the flood of notification emails
> and
> > > >> decide to unsubscribe instead of taking the hassle of dealing with
> > email
> > > >> filters.
> > > >>
> > > >> *Filters*
> > > >> Pretty much everything which can be done with separate mailing
> lists,
> > > can
> > > >> be achieved by some clever email filters too. Though I think having
> > > >> multiple mailing lists is technologically a better distinction for
> > > emails:
> > > >> separate archives, different retention policies, less email to be
> > > delivered
> > > >> (filters working on client side) and more convenient for new
> > > subscribers.
> > > >>
> > > >> *Markmail*
> > > >> I’m a power user of markmail too, but I’m not sure how it works.
> Tbh I
> > > >> cannot see the benefits of searching for automated emails from
> Gitbox,
> > > but
> > > >> I’m sure we can set it up properly, if needed.
> > > >>
> > > >> *Existing users*
> > > >> It’s completely valid that on the flip side we’ll mess up the
config
> > of
> > > >> existing users. I don’t we can avoid that or do this in a backward
> > > >> compatible way, but I think it’s worth to pay this price. What will
> > > happen
> > > >> to them?
> > > >> - Stop receiving emails from Jira and Github,
> > > >> - Get the announcement on the dev list: hey, from now on you need
to
> > > >> subscribe from a@zk.org if you want to be notified about A and
> > b@zk.org
> > > >> if you want to be notified about B, etc.
> > > >> I don’t think we can automatically subscribe them for the new lists,
> > it
> > > >> sounds like against the law (GDPR?), but I’m not a lawyer.
> > > >>
> > > >> My 2 cents.
> > > >>
> > > >> Regards,
> > > >> Andor
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>> On 2019. May 13., at 9:25, Norbert Kalmar
> > <nkalmar@cloudera.com.INVALID
> > > >
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Well, +1 (non-binding) from my side (if it wasn't clear from my
> email
> > > ).
> > > >>> I agree that anyone following the dev list will have a chance
to
> > > sign-up
> > > >>> for the new list, basically that's all old users have to do. Maybe
> > > >>> delete/modify some filters.
> > > >>> And anyone "semi-following" the ZK thread, I figure doing nothing
> > (not
> > > >>> signing up for the new list) is fine, as they are mostly interested
> > in
> > > >> user
> > > >>> emails, votes etc., and those email will remain in the current
> list.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> But of course I can only speak for myself, and this sounds like
a
> > good
> > > >> idea
> > > >>> to me.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 9:31 PM Lars Francke <
> lars.francke@gmail.com
> > >
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> re: existing users
> > > >>>> I'd expect they read this mailing list, and if they do they
should
> > see
> > > >> the
> > > >>>> announcement that things change and need to re-subscribe,
if they
> > > don't
> > > >>>> follow the list anyway then...well nothing really lost.
> > > >>>> I understand the concern but I'm afraid there's nothing we
can do
> > > >> there. I
> > > >>>> don't think it's trivial to automatically subscribe people
to a
> new
> > > >> list,
> > > >>>> we'd need to ask INFRA if it's even possible.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> re: new users: Yes, as a new subscriber it's definitely VERY
> > > >> overwhelming
> > > >>>> (especially the gitbox mails) and it's also nowadays almost
> > unexpected
> > > >>>> because most other projects (at least the ones I follow) have
the
> > > >>>> separation of mailing lists already
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 6:28 PM Norbert Kalmar
> > > >>>> <nkalmar@cloudera.com.invalid>
> > > >>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> I agree we have a lot of "noise", as others, I have created
the
> > > filters
> > > >>>> and
> > > >>>>> since forgot about them.
> > > >>>>> But it is overwhelming for a new subscriber, and filters
always
> > carry
> > > >> the
> > > >>>>> dangers of false positive filtering. i.e. filter out someone's
> > email.
> > > >>>>> I think someone joining the dev-zookeeper mailing list
is always
> a
> > > good
> > > >>>>> thing, and we shouldn't scare them away :)
> > > >>>>> For the existing users, I guess they would have to sign
up for
> the
> > > new
> > > >>>>> list.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> It would be nice, but I'm not even sure of all the dependent
> stuff
> > > >>>> (Patrick
> > > >>>>> just mentioned marmail for example).
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Regards,
> > > >>>>> Norbert
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 10:06 AM Lars Francke <
> > > lars.francke@gmail.com>
> > > >>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Sorry, I didn't mean to comment on the tracking sites
in the
> VOTE
> > > >>>> thread.
> > > >>>>>> That belongs here.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Either way: Markmail etc. shouldn't be broken. Yes,
they may
> take
> > a
> > > >>>> while
> > > >>>>>> before they index stuff but the "canonical" tracking
site is
> > > >>>>>> https://lists.apache.org and that indexes new stuff
> automatically
> > > >>>>> anwyay.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 9:55 AM Lars Francke <
> > > lars.francke@gmail.com>
> > > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> I'm subscribed to around 40-60 Apache Mailing
lists. If the
> > > >>>>> notifications
> > > >>>>>>> were in a separate list I could just subscribe
to what I want
> > > instead
> > > >>>>> of
> > > >>>>>>> creating 80 or so filters.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> I think I disagree, I don't have to create filters
if the dev
> > list
> > > >>>> only
> > > >>>>>>> contains "discussions".
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Cheers,
> > > >>>>>>> Lars
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 12:38 AM Patrick Hunt
<
> phunt@apache.org>
> > > >>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> You're going to have to have a filter regardless.
Why change
> > now?
> > > >>>>> Also,
> > > >>>>>> if
> > > >>>>>>>> you do change it, be sure to update all of
the tracking sites
> > such
> > > >>>> as
> > > >>>>>>>> markmail (etc...), I find this invaluable.
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Regards,
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Patrick
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 1:18 AM Lars Francke
<
> > > >>>> lars.francke@gmail.com>
> > > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> INFRA can do it all :)
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> See for example this:
> > > >>>>>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-17915>
for Jira
> > > >>>>>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18296>
for
> Github
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> The necessary mailing lists can be created
here <
> > > >>>>>>>>> https://selfserve.apache.org/>
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> I'd be happy to file the issues myself
but it's better if it
> > > comes
> > > >>>>>> from
> > > >>>>>>>> a
> > > >>>>>>>>> PMC member.
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> > > >>>>>>>>> Lars
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 10:00 AM Andor
Molnar
> > > >>>>>>>> <andor@cloudera.com.invalid>
> > > >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Hi Lars,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Thank you for the hands, yes, indeed
we are interested!
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Currently I'm using all kind of magic
filters to separate
> > signal
> > > >>>>>> from
> > > >>>>>>>>>> noise.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> What do we need to do?
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Regards,
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Andor
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 9:51 AM Lars
Francke <
> > > >>>>>> lars.francke@gmail.com>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> I've recently subscribed to the
dev mailinglist but am
> > > >>>>> overwhelmed
> > > >>>>>>>> by
> > > >>>>>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> number of github notifications
and about to unsubscribe
> > again.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> But maybe you're interested in
moving the github & jira
> > > >>>>>>>> notifications
> > > >>>>>>>>> to
> > > >>>>>>>>>> a
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> different mailing list? I did
a quick search for on the
> > > >>>> mailing
> > > >>>>>> list
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> archives but couldn't find another
thread about it.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> The way we've done it at the Apache
Training project now
> for
> > > >>>>>>>> example is
> > > >>>>>>>>>> to
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> send all Github notifications
to notifications@ and all
> Jira
> > > >>>>>>>> messages
> > > >>>>>>>>> to
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> issues@ we only send Jira open
and close mails to dev@
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> This lowers the volume significantly
and works just fine.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Is this something you'd be interested
in?
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Lars
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
>

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