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From Lars Francke <lars.fran...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Github & Jira notifications
Date Fri, 17 May 2019 09:37:48 GMT
I don't really have anything else to add to this conversation. I agree with
Norbert & Andor.
Separating the lists is (slowly) becoming the standard at the ASF in the
projects I participate in and it makes it easier for newcomers.

Do we want to put this to a vote or abandon this?

On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 5:33 PM Andor Molnar <andor@apache.org> wrote:

> Without responding to this, let’s clarify what emails are we talking about:
>
> - Jenkins build notifications: failures / successes,
> - Jira notifications: Created, Updated, Status change, Commented, etc.
> - Github notifications: opened/closed pull request, commented on pull
> request, etc.
>
> Researching a bit around it seems like that issues@ mailing list is a
> common pattern across some Hadoop projects:
> https://hbase.apache.org/mailing-lists.html <
> https://hbase.apache.org/mailing-lists.html>
> https://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html <
> https://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html>
> https://kafka.apache.org/contact <https://kafka.apache.org/contact>
>
> But not on:
> https://hive.apache.org/mailing_lists.html <
> https://hive.apache.org/mailing_lists.html>
> https://oozie.apache.org/mail-lists.html <
> https://oozie.apache.org/mail-lists.html>
>
> Regards,
> Andor
>
>
>
> > On 2019. May 13., at 16:43, Patrick Hunt <phunt@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > I seem to remember that in the early days of apache the intent was for
> all
> > developers to participate in development of the project. MLs were used
> for
> > this initially and there has been concern in the past about the move to
> > JIRA as it removes critical discussions from the general dev flow. JIRA
> > discussions are cc'd to an ML for just this reason. Granted another
> aspect
> > of this mirroring is for archival purposes.
> >
> > As such the intent is for developers to participate in development
> > discussion. It sounds like you're turning this on it's head.
> >
> > Isn't this why we have a user list? For folks that are only casually
> > interested in project activity?
> >
> > Patrick
> >
> > On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 3:31 AM Andor Molnar <andor@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> Sorry for starting the vote too early, for some reason I thought it’s a
> >> straightforward thing, but the concerns are valid.
> >>
> >> I believe this is a good thing to do now, because the activity in
> >> ZooKeeper community has reached a level which the dev list with all
> >> notifications included hasn’t been prepared for. I see emails every now
> and
> >> then from people who fed up with the flood of notification emails and
> >> decide to unsubscribe instead of taking the hassle of dealing with email
> >> filters.
> >>
> >> *Filters*
> >> Pretty much everything which can be done with separate mailing lists,
> can
> >> be achieved by some clever email filters too. Though I think having
> >> multiple mailing lists is technologically a better distinction for
> emails:
> >> separate archives, different retention policies, less email to be
> delivered
> >> (filters working on client side) and more convenient for new
> subscribers.
> >>
> >> *Markmail*
> >> I’m a power user of markmail too, but I’m not sure how it works. Tbh I
> >> cannot see the benefits of searching for automated emails from Gitbox,
> but
> >> I’m sure we can set it up properly, if needed.
> >>
> >> *Existing users*
> >> It’s completely valid that on the flip side we’ll mess up the config of
> >> existing users. I don’t we can avoid that or do this in a backward
> >> compatible way, but I think it’s worth to pay this price. What will
> happen
> >> to them?
> >> - Stop receiving emails from Jira and Github,
> >> - Get the announcement on the dev list: hey, from now on you need to
> >> subscribe from a@zk.org if you want to be notified about A and b@zk.org
> >> if you want to be notified about B, etc.
> >> I don’t think we can automatically subscribe them for the new lists, it
> >> sounds like against the law (GDPR?), but I’m not a lawyer.
> >>
> >> My 2 cents.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Andor
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> On 2019. May 13., at 9:25, Norbert Kalmar <nkalmar@cloudera.com.INVALID
> >
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Well, +1 (non-binding) from my side (if it wasn't clear from my email
> ).
> >>> I agree that anyone following the dev list will have a chance to
> sign-up
> >>> for the new list, basically that's all old users have to do. Maybe
> >>> delete/modify some filters.
> >>> And anyone "semi-following" the ZK thread, I figure doing nothing (not
> >>> signing up for the new list) is fine, as they are mostly interested in
> >> user
> >>> emails, votes etc., and those email will remain in the current list.
> >>>
> >>> But of course I can only speak for myself, and this sounds like a good
> >> idea
> >>> to me.
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 9:31 PM Lars Francke <lars.francke@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> re: existing users
> >>>> I'd expect they read this mailing list, and if they do they should see
> >> the
> >>>> announcement that things change and need to re-subscribe, if they
> don't
> >>>> follow the list anyway then...well nothing really lost.
> >>>> I understand the concern but I'm afraid there's nothing we can do
> >> there. I
> >>>> don't think it's trivial to automatically subscribe people to a new
> >> list,
> >>>> we'd need to ask INFRA if it's even possible.
> >>>>
> >>>> re: new users: Yes, as a new subscriber it's definitely VERY
> >> overwhelming
> >>>> (especially the gitbox mails) and it's also nowadays almost unexpected
> >>>> because most other projects (at least the ones I follow) have the
> >>>> separation of mailing lists already
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 6:28 PM Norbert Kalmar
> >>>> <nkalmar@cloudera.com.invalid>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I agree we have a lot of "noise", as others, I have created the
> filters
> >>>> and
> >>>>> since forgot about them.
> >>>>> But it is overwhelming for a new subscriber, and filters always
carry
> >> the
> >>>>> dangers of false positive filtering. i.e. filter out someone's email.
> >>>>> I think someone joining the dev-zookeeper mailing list is always
a
> good
> >>>>> thing, and we shouldn't scare them away :)
> >>>>> For the existing users, I guess they would have to sign up for the
> new
> >>>>> list.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It would be nice, but I'm not even sure of all the dependent stuff
> >>>> (Patrick
> >>>>> just mentioned marmail for example).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regards,
> >>>>> Norbert
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 10:06 AM Lars Francke <
> lars.francke@gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Sorry, I didn't mean to comment on the tracking sites in the
VOTE
> >>>> thread.
> >>>>>> That belongs here.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Either way: Markmail etc. shouldn't be broken. Yes, they may
take a
> >>>> while
> >>>>>> before they index stuff but the "canonical" tracking site is
> >>>>>> https://lists.apache.org and that indexes new stuff automatically
> >>>>> anwyay.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 9:55 AM Lars Francke <
> lars.francke@gmail.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'm subscribed to around 40-60 Apache Mailing lists. If
the
> >>>>> notifications
> >>>>>>> were in a separate list I could just subscribe to what I
want
> instead
> >>>>> of
> >>>>>>> creating 80 or so filters.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I think I disagree, I don't have to create filters if the
dev list
> >>>> only
> >>>>>>> contains "discussions".
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>> Lars
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 12:38 AM Patrick Hunt <phunt@apache.org>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> You're going to have to have a filter regardless. Why
change now?
> >>>>> Also,
> >>>>>> if
> >>>>>>>> you do change it, be sure to update all of the tracking
sites such
> >>>> as
> >>>>>>>> markmail (etc...), I find this invaluable.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Patrick
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 1:18 AM Lars Francke <
> >>>> lars.francke@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> INFRA can do it all :)
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> See for example this:
> >>>>>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-17915>
for Jira
> >>>>>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18296>
for Github
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The necessary mailing lists can be created here
<
> >>>>>>>>> https://selfserve.apache.org/>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I'd be happy to file the issues myself but it's
better if it
> comes
> >>>>>> from
> >>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>> PMC member.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>>> Lars
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 10:00 AM Andor Molnar
> >>>>>>>> <andor@cloudera.com.invalid>
> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Hi Lars,
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Thank you for the hands, yes, indeed we are
interested!
> >>>>>>>>>> Currently I'm using all kind of magic filters
to separate signal
> >>>>>> from
> >>>>>>>>>> noise.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> What do we need to do?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>>>>>> Andor
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 9:51 AM Lars Francke
<
> >>>>>> lars.francke@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I've recently subscribed to the dev mailinglist
but am
> >>>>> overwhelmed
> >>>>>>>> by
> >>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>> number of github notifications and about
to unsubscribe again.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> But maybe you're interested in moving the
github & jira
> >>>>>>>> notifications
> >>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>> different mailing list? I did a quick search
for on the
> >>>> mailing
> >>>>>> list
> >>>>>>>>>>> archives but couldn't find another thread
about it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> The way we've done it at the Apache Training
project now for
> >>>>>>>> example is
> >>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>> send all Github notifications to notifications@
and all Jira
> >>>>>>>> messages
> >>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>> issues@ we only send Jira open and close
mails to dev@
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> This lowers the volume significantly and
works just fine.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Is this something you'd be interested in?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>>>>> Lars
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> >>
>
>

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