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From Andor Molnar <an...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Github & Jira notifications
Date Mon, 20 May 2019 11:15:18 GMT
I’m not sure whether we have convinced Patrick entirely.
Before casting my vote, I’d be happy if we could reach consensus in the community with this
change, not just majority.

Reason is that I rather feel it a nice-to-have improvement, not critical.

Andor



> On 2019. May 17., at 17:05, Flavio Junqueira <fpj@apache.org> wrote:
> 
> To add to this conversation, we have 5 mailing lists as of today:
> 
> dev@z.a.o
> commits@z.a.o
> private@z.a.o
> security@z.a.o
> user@z.a.o
> 
> The commits@ one was historically supposed to be for notifications.
> 
> -Flavio 
> 
> 
>> On 17 May 2019, at 16:50, Lars Francke <lars.francke@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Alright, I will do so, thank you
>> 
>> On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 11:46 AM Norbert Kalmar
>> <nkalmar@cloudera.com.invalid> wrote:
>> 
>>> I think we should start a vote.
>>> 
>>> Lars, feel free to start it, as it is your initiative, you can place your
>>> argument in the initial email.
>>> Thanks for bringing this up!
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> Norbert
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 11:38 AM Lars Francke <lars.francke@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I don't really have anything else to add to this conversation. I agree
>>> with
>>>> Norbert & Andor.
>>>> Separating the lists is (slowly) becoming the standard at the ASF in the
>>>> projects I participate in and it makes it easier for newcomers.
>>>> 
>>>> Do we want to put this to a vote or abandon this?
>>>> 
>>>> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 5:33 PM Andor Molnar <andor@apache.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Without responding to this, let’s clarify what emails are we talking
>>>> about:
>>>>> 
>>>>> - Jenkins build notifications: failures / successes,
>>>>> - Jira notifications: Created, Updated, Status change, Commented, etc.
>>>>> - Github notifications: opened/closed pull request, commented on pull
>>>>> request, etc.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Researching a bit around it seems like that issues@ mailing list is a
>>>>> common pattern across some Hadoop projects:
>>>>> https://hbase.apache.org/mailing-lists.html <
>>>>> https://hbase.apache.org/mailing-lists.html>
>>>>> https://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html <
>>>>> https://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html>
>>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/contact <https://kafka.apache.org/contact>
>>>>> 
>>>>> But not on:
>>>>> https://hive.apache.org/mailing_lists.html <
>>>>> https://hive.apache.org/mailing_lists.html>
>>>>> https://oozie.apache.org/mail-lists.html <
>>>>> https://oozie.apache.org/mail-lists.html>
>>>>> 
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Andor
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 2019. May 13., at 16:43, Patrick Hunt <phunt@apache.org>
wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I seem to remember that in the early days of apache the intent was
>>> for
>>>>> all
>>>>>> developers to participate in development of the project. MLs were
>>> used
>>>>> for
>>>>>> this initially and there has been concern in the past about the move
>>> to
>>>>>> JIRA as it removes critical discussions from the general dev flow.
>>> JIRA
>>>>>> discussions are cc'd to an ML for just this reason. Granted another
>>>>> aspect
>>>>>> of this mirroring is for archival purposes.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> As such the intent is for developers to participate in development
>>>>>> discussion. It sounds like you're turning this on it's head.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Isn't this why we have a user list? For folks that are only casually
>>>>>> interested in project activity?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Patrick
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 3:31 AM Andor Molnar <andor@apache.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Sorry for starting the vote too early, for some reason I thought
>>> it’s
>>>> a
>>>>>>> straightforward thing, but the concerns are valid.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I believe this is a good thing to do now, because the activity
in
>>>>>>> ZooKeeper community has reached a level which the dev list with
all
>>>>>>> notifications included hasn’t been prepared for. I see emails
every
>>>> now
>>>>> and
>>>>>>> then from people who fed up with the flood of notification emails
>>> and
>>>>>>> decide to unsubscribe instead of taking the hassle of dealing
with
>>>> email
>>>>>>> filters.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> *Filters*
>>>>>>> Pretty much everything which can be done with separate mailing
>>> lists,
>>>>> can
>>>>>>> be achieved by some clever email filters too. Though I think
having
>>>>>>> multiple mailing lists is technologically a better distinction
for
>>>>> emails:
>>>>>>> separate archives, different retention policies, less email to
be
>>>>> delivered
>>>>>>> (filters working on client side) and more convenient for new
>>>>> subscribers.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> *Markmail*
>>>>>>> I’m a power user of markmail too, but I’m not sure how it
works.
>>> Tbh I
>>>>>>> cannot see the benefits of searching for automated emails from
>>> Gitbox,
>>>>> but
>>>>>>> I’m sure we can set it up properly, if needed.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> *Existing users*
>>>>>>> It’s completely valid that on the flip side we’ll mess up
the config
>>>> of
>>>>>>> existing users. I don’t we can avoid that or do this in a backward
>>>>>>> compatible way, but I think it’s worth to pay this price. What
will
>>>>> happen
>>>>>>> to them?
>>>>>>> - Stop receiving emails from Jira and Github,
>>>>>>> - Get the announcement on the dev list: hey, from now on you
need to
>>>>>>> subscribe from a@zk.org if you want to be notified about A and
>>>> b@zk.org
>>>>>>> if you want to be notified about B, etc.
>>>>>>> I don’t think we can automatically subscribe them for the new
lists,
>>>> it
>>>>>>> sounds like against the law (GDPR?), but I’m not a lawyer.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> My 2 cents.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Andor
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 2019. May 13., at 9:25, Norbert Kalmar
>>>> <nkalmar@cloudera.com.INVALID
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Well, +1 (non-binding) from my side (if it wasn't clear from
my
>>> email
>>>>> ).
>>>>>>>> I agree that anyone following the dev list will have a chance
to
>>>>> sign-up
>>>>>>>> for the new list, basically that's all old users have to
do. Maybe
>>>>>>>> delete/modify some filters.
>>>>>>>> And anyone "semi-following" the ZK thread, I figure doing
nothing
>>>> (not
>>>>>>>> signing up for the new list) is fine, as they are mostly
interested
>>>> in
>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>>> emails, votes etc., and those email will remain in the current
>>> list.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> But of course I can only speak for myself, and this sounds
like a
>>>> good
>>>>>>> idea
>>>>>>>> to me.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 9:31 PM Lars Francke <
>>> lars.francke@gmail.com
>>>>> 
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> re: existing users
>>>>>>>>> I'd expect they read this mailing list, and if they do
they should
>>>> see
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> announcement that things change and need to re-subscribe,
if they
>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>> follow the list anyway then...well nothing really lost.
>>>>>>>>> I understand the concern but I'm afraid there's nothing
we can do
>>>>>>> there. I
>>>>>>>>> don't think it's trivial to automatically subscribe people
to a
>>> new
>>>>>>> list,
>>>>>>>>> we'd need to ask INFRA if it's even possible.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> re: new users: Yes, as a new subscriber it's definitely
VERY
>>>>>>> overwhelming
>>>>>>>>> (especially the gitbox mails) and it's also nowadays
almost
>>>> unexpected
>>>>>>>>> because most other projects (at least the ones I follow)
have the
>>>>>>>>> separation of mailing lists already
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 6:28 PM Norbert Kalmar
>>>>>>>>> <nkalmar@cloudera.com.invalid>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I agree we have a lot of "noise", as others, I have
created the
>>>>> filters
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> since forgot about them.
>>>>>>>>>> But it is overwhelming for a new subscriber, and
filters always
>>>> carry
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> dangers of false positive filtering. i.e. filter
out someone's
>>>> email.
>>>>>>>>>> I think someone joining the dev-zookeeper mailing
list is always
>>> a
>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>> thing, and we shouldn't scare them away :)
>>>>>>>>>> For the existing users, I guess they would have to
sign up for
>>> the
>>>>> new
>>>>>>>>>> list.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> It would be nice, but I'm not even sure of all the
dependent
>>> stuff
>>>>>>>>> (Patrick
>>>>>>>>>> just mentioned marmail for example).
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>> Norbert
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 10:06 AM Lars Francke <
>>>>> lars.francke@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry, I didn't mean to comment on the tracking
sites in the
>>> VOTE
>>>>>>>>> thread.
>>>>>>>>>>> That belongs here.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Either way: Markmail etc. shouldn't be broken.
Yes, they may
>>> take
>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>> before they index stuff but the "canonical" tracking
site is
>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org and that indexes new
stuff
>>> automatically
>>>>>>>>>> anwyay.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 9:55 AM Lars Francke
<
>>>>> lars.francke@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm subscribed to around 40-60 Apache Mailing
lists. If the
>>>>>>>>>> notifications
>>>>>>>>>>>> were in a separate list I could just subscribe
to what I want
>>>>> instead
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> creating 80 or so filters.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> I think I disagree, I don't have to create
filters if the dev
>>>> list
>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>>>> contains "discussions".
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Lars
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 12:38 AM Patrick
Hunt <
>>> phunt@apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You're going to have to have a filter
regardless. Why change
>>>> now?
>>>>>>>>>> Also,
>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you do change it, be sure to update all
of the tracking sites
>>>> such
>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> markmail (etc...), I find this invaluable.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Patrick
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 1:18 AM Lars
Francke <
>>>>>>>>> lars.francke@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> INFRA can do it all :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> See for example this:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-17915>
for Jira
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18296>
for
>>> Github
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The necessary mailing lists can be
created here <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://selfserve.apache.org/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd be happy to file the issues myself
but it's better if it
>>>>> comes
>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PMC member.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lars
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 10:00 AM
Andor Molnar
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <andor@cloudera.com.invalid>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Lars,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for the hands, yes,
indeed we are interested!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Currently I'm using all kind
of magic filters to separate
>>>> signal
>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> noise.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do we need to do?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Andor
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 9:51
AM Lars Francke <
>>>>>>>>>>> lars.francke@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've recently subscribed
to the dev mailinglist but am
>>>>>>>>>> overwhelmed
>>>>>>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of github notifications
and about to unsubscribe
>>>> again.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But maybe you're interested
in moving the github & jira
>>>>>>>>>>>>> notifications
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different mailing list? I
did a quick search for on the
>>>>>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> archives but couldn't find
another thread about it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The way we've done it at
the Apache Training project now
>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> example is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send all Github notifications
to notifications@ and all
>>> Jira
>>>>>>>>>>>>> messages
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issues@ we only send Jira
open and close mails to dev@
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This lowers the volume significantly
and works just fine.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is this something you'd be
interested in?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lars
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
> 


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