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From Martin Stricker <shu...@gmx.de>
Subject Re: [OT] Design Rant
Date Wed, 19 Dec 2001 22:23:02 GMT
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Copied to general@ since this is a general discussion.
> Ugo Cei wrote:

<snip type="not_important"/>

> > Using a CSS-based layout also means that people using 4th generation
> > browsers (NS 4, IE 4, etc.) must be "protected" from such a
> > stylesheet or they will see utter garbage. Hiding the CSS from them
> > means that they won't be able to appreciate the layout, but will
> > nonetheless be able to read the full *content*, just not very well
> > styled. But come on, this is a site devoted to *developers*
> > developing for the Web. Can you imagine a web developer today using
> > ONLY NS4 or IE4?
> >
> > Incidentally, adopting a pure-CSS based solution for both layout AND
> > styling means that people using:
> >
> > - text browsers
> > - screen readers for the sight impaired
> > - mobile devices
> > - anything you cannot conceive now but that will be make web
> >    access available from your washing machine or whatever :)
> >
> > will be able to access the site contents without their "screen" or
> > reader being cluttered with spurious markup that is not in any way
> > related to the content they need.

> > In other words, what I am proposing is that we stop worrying about
> > being bacward compatible in order to accomodate old, buggy and
> > non-compliant user agents, but instead start to be FORWARD
> > compatible in order to accomodate FUTURE standard-compliant user
> > agents.
> >
> > Let me know what you think about it and sorry for being slightly OT.

> Moreover, this is a site dedicated to new technologies for the web and
> a site dedicated to evangelize open standard compliance thru reference
> implementations and cooperation.
> If we page a page on the 'about' section that talks about our reasons,
> I think people might even appreciate our effort to both evangelize the
> technology and 'put in practice' what we say.
> What do others think? (we must have a wide agreement to go forward on
> this)

Usually I always say KISS (keep it simple, sweetie) and "keep an eye for
older and text browsers" to web designers. Particularly text browsers
since I'm often working on *nix in text mode. Since the CSS-only design
will work at least somehow on all these (which nested tables don't do)
I'll give it a provisional
(though I'm not a committer but a regular guest on the site)
When the new CSS-design is teady I'd like to test it in various browsers
so I can find any difficulties. Just put it up somewhere on the web,
ideally together with Stefano's Forrest proposal and the current
xml.apache.org design for broad testing.

giacomo@apache.org wrote:
> I know of manager visiting the sites to verify we told them the truth
> about open source, licensing, cool projects when we do evangelize OS
> products to them.
> Those people are not on the edge of the technology (read use
> IE6/NS6.2/Mozilla browsers). They have corporate PCs with the software
> someone else has installed there and they usually are not able to
> change that.
> I don't want to say we shouldn't go the CSS way, but we might not be
> able in all cases to show our cool sites (in terms of technology used)
> to the ones having something to say in companies where others here
> like to bring in OS software.

That's an important point! We want our software to be used by the
corpararte world. I recommend going on with the CSS approach and then
doing heavy testing and tweaking. If the outcome is "manager-approved"
we go ahead, if not we'll conduct the real vote then when we have all
the facts to decide on.

Best regards,
Martin Stricker
Homepage: http://www.martin-stricker.de/
Registered Linux user #210635: http://counter.li.org/

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