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From "Robert Koberg" <...@koberg.com>
Subject Re: [OT] Design Rant
Date Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:05:14 GMT
One more  thing and I will shut up (at least for a while :).

There is the concept of "above the fold."  Think of a newspaper in a vending
machine.  When you walk by the machine you may glance at the machine and see
the newspaper - but you only see what is above the fold.  This might or
might not trigger more sales. I would say a web-site is more like a
newspaper than a book.

Tables help to get more content above the fold. People can get a quick
overview without having to scroll. There are many more problems with people
not even knowing they should scroll a page, so the more you can _reasonably_
fit the better.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Koberg" <rob@koberg.com>
To: <general@xml.apache.org>
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 4:45 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] Design Rant


>
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Henning von Bargen" <H.vonBargen@triestram-partner.de>
>
> > A HTML page should simply be coded in a linear fashion
> > (I read that somewhere in an article about designing web pages for
> impaired
> > readers),
>
> I've never heard of the horizontally impaired :) - joking, I understand
what
> you mean
>
> It would certainly make life easier to build one column pages :)  The last
> 'professional' website I made was:
> http://teenlearningnetwork.com (very heavy and if your browser has trouble
> with tables it will have trouble with this site...)
> you would not believe the battles I had to go through to get them to
conform
> to some _minimum_ usability standards (I failed in many ways...). Both the
> designer and executive producer wanted a 'flashy' site to attract the
> kiddies. I came in after the site was designed and just applied some
> xml/xslt/java goodness to generate the site. I'd like to see somebody
layout
> that design without tables :) I guess my point is my mortgage in SF is
> expensive and I have to pay the bills...
>
>
>
> > so that it is usable with screen readers.
> > As a rule of thumb, it should be more or less possible to read the html
> code
> > like a book if you think all the html tags stripped off.
>
>
> but that does not suit everybody's needs.  So you feel there should not
even
> be a side-nav-bar?  I work a good deal with designers (well, actually
> graphic artists...). Just like when you guys look at a a highly styled
page
> and feel it is ridiculous, they look at a basic one column layout and cry
> "Amatuer!"  It has been my experience that the designer is there with the
> client way before the developer. So they have early infleunce. And in many
> cases the person paying for the site wants something 'that stands out.'
>
>
> > Tables should be used for tabular data only inside the content
> > and (as a practical exception) can be used inside toolbars at the top
and
> > bottom
> > which aren't part of the content.
>
> yes, and personal computers are for spreadsheets -- can you imagine the
> security risks if pc's were networked? Curious, why do make just the one
> practical exception?
>
>
> > BTW, the text resizing problem you mentioned above is exactly the same
> with
> > fixed-size tables.
> > All that pixel-measuring-stuff should be left to the browsers.
> >
>
> that is not my experience.  Absolutely positioned DIVs can (and do if text
> is resized) overlap each other. Table cells push each other one way or the
> other (or the text wraps).  So, yes, it is best to let the browser handle
it
> (but first give it some idea what to do)
>
> best,
> -Rob
>
>
>
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