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From "Anne Thomas Manes" <a...@manes.net>
Subject RE: [POLL] WASP Lite on Apache?
Date Thu, 15 Nov 2001 02:28:45 GMT

Sorry that I have't responded to the discussion -- I've been on a plane all

Before initiating this poll, I discussed it with Sam. I first suggested
submitting WASP to Axis. Sam suggested that we set it up as a separate
project. But we're happy to abide by the community's decision.

As Sam said, Axis supports JAX/RPC. WASP supports JAXM. WASP also supports
pluggable transports, pluggable XML protocols, pluggable header processing,
pluggable encoding, and pluggable serializers. I saw a recent note from
James Snell saying that he was making a fairly significant architecture
change to Axis to support pluggable transports. I think there will be lots
of opportunity to steal/merge code across the two code bases. I just don't
want there to be a huge disruption in Axis to make it happen.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:stefano@apache.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 4:49 AM
> To: general@xml.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [POLL] WASP Lite on Apache?
> Anne Thomas Manes wrote:
> >
> > Stefano,
> >
> > I'm pleased that you think it's a good thing.
> To clarify: I was commenting Sam's note on "I am looking forward
> to increased synergy and participation."
> Increased synergy is what I believe it's a good thing.
> Whether or not making WASP Lite an apache subproject, *this* is yet to
> be clarified to my eyes.
> Just to make sure that everybody understands this distinction: synergy
> *automatically* generates better communities. Competing projects,
> normally, do not.
> So to be crystal clear:
>  synergy -> good thing
>  competing subprojects -> not so sure
> > We first thought of submitting WASP Lite to Axis, but after
> consideration
> > determined that this approach would be too disruptive and technically
> > challenging.
> Who considered that? you or the axis community?
> > WASP Lite is a complete code base, and it would be very
> > difficult to attempt to merge this code base with the Axis code base.
> Oh, believe me, you'd be surprised on how creative people can become if
> they are really interested in something.
> > Any
> > merger attempt would significantly delay both projects. We don't want to
> > disrupt the Axis project.
> We share the same concerns though. Let us understand whether or not the
> move you propose goes in this direction or not.
> > At the same time we think that the open source community will definitely
> > benefit from WASP Lite.
> Oh, I don't question that. If Sam says so, I trust his technical
> judgement.
> But you didn't state
> > We think that a separate project is the better way to go.
> I thank you very much for your suggestion and will be taken into very
> high consideration, but please keep in mind that it's up to the apache
> communities to decide what to do with donated code.
> If you decide to donate it in order to communities to benefit, it should
> not be your concern where the code ends up living, but should be the
> community's itself.
> > Over time Axis and WASP Lite are likely to share code. Perhaps the
> > projects might eventually converge.
> > This wouldn't be the first time we've had competing projects at Apache
> > (Crimson/Xerces/Xerces2 comes to mind).
> Exactly. We got burned big time by the politics involved in this very
> example and we DO NOT want this to happen again since we wouldn't have
> the energy to do this over again.
> It is exactly because of this example that I'm seriously concerned about
> having competing subprojects.
> Note: we have rules that allow committers of one project to propose an
> "internal fork" of the subproject itself, then is the community to
> decide what to do, but this doesn't separate them.
> If some of your guys are already committers of Axis and you think your
> solution is better from a technical perspective, then why don't you
> propose an internal fork with a new codename and work from there?
> > I think it just goes to show that
> > the community is very interested in the technology.
> Sorry, I can't follow you.
> I asked explicitly for overlap analysis in order to understand why you
> propose a different subproject but I didn't get that answer.
> Now, if you care about the interest of the community is should not
> matter where the code ends up living or what name it will end up having.
> Right?
> If you are so concerned about the name and the location, it only goes to
> show me that you are more interested in its location and its visibility
> than to the community interests.
> But I sincerely hope you can prove me wrong.
> So, let's get to the point: I'm personally against having two competing
> subprojects for no technical reason, no matter what they do. Technical
> competition should happen "inside" an existing community, following the
> "Rules for revolutionaries".
> So, either somebody explains those technical reasons in detail (and
> convices me of the value of having two competing communities), or my
> vote remains a +1 on the acceptance of the code donation, but as a -1 on
> the creation of a new subproject.
> DISCLAIMER: having resigned from PMC last year, this vote is not pending
> but just a crystal clear way of expressing my very personal opinion as
> part of this community.
> --
> Stefano Mazzocchi      One must still have chaos in oneself to be
>                           able to give birth to a dancing star.
> <stefano@apache.org>                             Friedrich Nietzsche
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