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From Stefano Mazzocchi <stef...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [POLL] WASP Lite on Apache?
Date Mon, 19 Nov 2001 11:54:29 GMT
Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
> Hi Stefano,
> > 2) Apache SOAP and Apache Axis are dealing with this and Axis is very
> > likely to be the community of choice (I never liked the name Apache SOAP
> > myself so I'm happy to hear this)
> Just to be clear- Axis is a new implementation of SOAP. At one point
> it was called Apache SOAP v3 but the name was changed when there it
> appeared likely that the W3C would change the name of the protocol.
> Apache SOAP is destined to become the "old version" and Axis to be
> the new and on-going version.

I now understand this, but this is *NOT* clear from the outside.

We must fix this in some way.

> > Sam indicated that Axis is more or less Apache SOAP 2, well, then you
> > guys broke the revolutionary rules by giving subproject status to an
> > internal fork.
> I'm a core developer of Apache SOAP. When the V3 discussions were
> going on the active V3 folks wanted to establish a seperate project
> mostly for "distinct community identity" purposes IMO. I was (and
> am) fully supportive of Axis and didn't push for an internal fork
> at that time because it appeared that the community would foster
> better with a "clean slate." Given the value of community over
> mechanics, IMO it was the right decision to make it into a separate
> project.

> The name, as I said above, was deliberately chosen to not have
> the word (?) SOAP in it. Axis actually stands for something (pretty
> nebulous, as I recall), but I forget what right now.

As I said, I didn't like the name Apache SOAP since day one (and I
expressed this when the PMC had to vote on the code donation but I was
> > I'd love to see this mess fixed and my proposed plan is:
> >
> >  1) the Apache subproject that takes care of web services becomes Apache
> > Axis (which is a cool name, BTW).
> >
> >  2) Apache SOAP gets moved into Axis [or left there if everyone agrees
> > on letting it die out]
> >
> >  3) WASP Lite is submitted to the Axis community which will then decide
> > what to do with that. Either refactor the code, or ship it as it is [but
> > with a new codename!] or making it the Axis 2.0 branch of the CVS. Up to
> > them.
> Apache SOAP and Apache Axis are SOAP engine implementations. While
> SOAP plays an important role in Web servies, it is by no means the
> only key technology. WSDL for example actually has a conceptually
> bigger role in Web services (and will continue to have a wider role).
> What we need is a "meta" project above the SOAP engine level proejcts.

> My proposal would be to create an "Apache Web Services Project" and
> host under that:
>     - Apache SOAP (destined to rest in peace once Axis kicks into
>       high gear)
>     - Apache Axis
>     - [Any other projects that get started under this project]

Ah, a new PMC. Sam expressed the same intention.

>>From where I stand, this webservices.apache.org is very likely to become
*the* political battleground around here and, if I'd be happy to let you
guys take care of that yourself, I'm concerned about the initial
diversity of the PMC required to bootstrap this community.

I don't want to see the old xerces/crimson mess multiplied by an order
of magnitude, even if I don't participate in that community in first

Anyway, I fully trust the Apache Board judgement on this.
> As for WASP, I personally feel it'll be better placed as an separate
> dir in the Axis tree and then used to merge into Axis. 

Same here.

> I personally
> don't think its a good idea for one to be able to download 3 separate
> SOAP implementations from Apache. 

Totally agreed.

> Apache SOAP and Axis have a well-
> defined (and well-known, I believe) relationship: one is a replacement
> for the other. 

Glad to hear it's well-defined, but I don't perceive it as well-known at

> WASP comes in at a bit of a messy time for Axis- but
> after Axis goes to 1.0 the best of Axis and the best of WASP should
> be combined to make Axis 2.0. Right now, IMO the best thing to do is
> to commit WASP into Axis, get the two developer communities merged
> and then move forward. While it is true that two of the main WASPers
> are Axisers, they haven't been active for a while (AFAIK); so
> getting the two teams to become aware of each others' codebases is
> critical and will take some time.

I completely agree this is the way to go.

But still I don't see why we need two subprojects implementing SOAP with
different names, different mail lists and different codebases.

The community might be the same and the future agreed and planned, but
this is *NOT* the perception you get from the outside.

And it's the outside that gives us users and developers, not the inside.

Stefano Mazzocchi      One must still have chaos in oneself to be
                          able to give birth to a dancing star.
<stefano@apache.org>                             Friedrich Nietzsche

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