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From Stefano Mazzocchi <stef...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [POLL] WASP Lite on Apache?
Date Wed, 14 Nov 2001 12:48:52 GMT
Anne Thomas Manes wrote:
> 
> Stefano,
> 
> I'm pleased that you think it's a good thing.

To clarify: I was commenting Sam's note on "I am looking forward
to increased synergy and participation."

Increased synergy is what I believe it's a good thing.

Whether or not making WASP Lite an apache subproject, *this* is yet to
be clarified to my eyes.

Just to make sure that everybody understands this distinction: synergy
*automatically* generates better communities. Competing projects,
normally, do not.

So to be crystal clear: 
 
 synergy -> good thing
 competing subprojects -> not so sure

> We first thought of submitting WASP Lite to Axis, but after consideration
> determined that this approach would be too disruptive and technically
> challenging. 

Who considered that? you or the axis community?

> WASP Lite is a complete code base, and it would be very
> difficult to attempt to merge this code base with the Axis code base. 

Oh, believe me, you'd be surprised on how creative people can become if
they are really interested in something.

> Any
> merger attempt would significantly delay both projects. We don't want to
> disrupt the Axis project.

We share the same concerns though. Let us understand whether or not the
move you propose goes in this direction or not.
 
> At the same time we think that the open source community will definitely
> benefit from WASP Lite. 

Oh, I don't question that. If Sam says so, I trust his technical
judgement.

But you didn't state 

> We think that a separate project is the better way to go. 

I thank you very much for your suggestion and will be taken into very
high consideration, but please keep in mind that it's up to the apache
communities to decide what to do with donated code. 

If you decide to donate it in order to communities to benefit, it should
not be your concern where the code ends up living, but should be the
community's itself.

> Over time Axis and WASP Lite are likely to share code. Perhaps the
> projects might eventually converge.

> This wouldn't be the first time we've had competing projects at Apache
> (Crimson/Xerces/Xerces2 comes to mind). 

Exactly. We got burned big time by the politics involved in this very
example and we DO NOT want this to happen again since we wouldn't have
the energy to do this over again.

It is exactly because of this example that I'm seriously concerned about
having competing subprojects.

Note: we have rules that allow committers of one project to propose an
"internal fork" of the subproject itself, then is the community to
decide what to do, but this doesn't separate them.

If some of your guys are already committers of Axis and you think your
solution is better from a technical perspective, then why don't you
propose an internal fork with a new codename and work from there?

> I think it just goes to show that
> the community is very interested in the technology.

Sorry, I can't follow you.

I asked explicitly for overlap analysis in order to understand why you
propose a different subproject but I didn't get that answer.

Now, if you care about the interest of the community is should not
matter where the code ends up living or what name it will end up having.
Right?

If you are so concerned about the name and the location, it only goes to
show me that you are more interested in its location and its visibility
than to the community interests.

But I sincerely hope you can prove me wrong.

So, let's get to the point: I'm personally against having two competing
subprojects for no technical reason, no matter what they do. Technical
competition should happen "inside" an existing community, following the
"Rules for revolutionaries".

So, either somebody explains those technical reasons in detail (and
convices me of the value of having two competing communities), or my
vote remains a +1 on the acceptance of the code donation, but as a -1 on
the creation of a new subproject.

DISCLAIMER: having resigned from PMC last year, this vote is not pending
but just a crystal clear way of expressing my very personal opinion as
part of this community.

-- 
Stefano Mazzocchi      One must still have chaos in oneself to be
                          able to give birth to a dancing star.
<stefano@apache.org>                             Friedrich Nietzsche
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