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From Stefano Mazzocchi <stef...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [POLL] ebXML Reg./Rep. on Apache?
Date Tue, 06 Nov 2001 23:31:51 GMT
Peter Kacandes wrote:
> Dear Apache XML Community Members,
> First off, I want to thank you all for your time and effort in consideration of
> our project proposal.

Peter, thanks for your nice words.
> It seems pretty clear, however, that the requirements for gaining acceptance as
> an Apache project have not been met, and for good reason.

Yes, while some people on this list interpret our comments as technical
judgment, but they don't understand (like you do) that it's much harder
to build a community than to build software.

In the past, we had a much looser guidelines to accept projects and
found out that without membership support on the project boostrap, the
community grew detached from the rest of the system and later on created
much friction with the others projects.

So, it was decided to force a new project to be "sponsored" in such a
way that the community felt integration. Normally, the evolution is that
once the project is "healthy", the sponsoring member proposes the
community leader for ASF membership. So that diversity grows at the ASF
membership level.

No, Pae, we don't judge technical details: how could we? even as a group
of respected developers, we could all be wrong from the technical point
of view.

You point out that we are not open if we judge the technical details to
accept projects and you are totally right! absolutely correct!

But you miss my point: without a good growth substrate, the community is
going to drain more energy from Apache than would give back.

Believe me, I know this from personal experience and it hurts! If you
want, I can give you specific examples.

Now, did we say "no, ebXML sucks, we like SOAP better?" or anything like
that? I didn't see any technical judgement on this list and if you
percieved it, I'm very sorry because in that case we weren't able to
express our intentions and this is a bad thing.

So, let me restate: we are concerned about the amount of energy that is
required to build an open community around an existing software and
nobody here seems to have that spare energy to help bootstrap the

That's all there is to it.

You might find it amazing that no Apache committer cares about ebXML:
well, know what? prove us wrong by helping on the project and people
will start coming up asking for it to be included here.

But I've seen too many projects dying out and sink energies from many
individuals and I personally don't care enough about that technology to
spend my time on it. 

Hope you understand my points.

> I fully understand and agree with the condition that there should be an active
> community in place around a project. This presented a bit of a catch 22 for us
> since we could not share the code base widely until we found a home for it.

I know this and I would be very happy to help if I cared about the
technology. But I'm currently focusing on content publishing so ebXML is
definately not on my radar (as it is SOAP, BTW)
> We had initially intended to start a regular open source project, but thought we
> might give Apache a first crack at it because we believe that the goals of ebXML
> align strongly with those of Apache and that the XML registry/repository project
> in particular has a great deal of synergy with other Apache XML projects.

Oh, yeah, I think it makes sense, but again, the community health will
tell us in the future if this is the case or not.
> I think that the best thing for us to do at this point is to get our project
> started elsewhere. Depending on how it goes, then perhaps at somepoint in the
> future we can revisit the issue if both communities think it advantageous.

Absolutely. This is what I've been proposing since my first comment on
the proposal.

> We will let you know as soon as the code base is available in another open
> source forum. At that point, we would certainly welcome the participation of any
> Apache community members, whether committers or not.

Great. This is the right attitude to make: unfortunately, in the past,
projects that were rejected when they first came built up a negative
feeling about Apache and ended up fighting against us instead of looking
for synergies.

I sincerely hope this doesn't happen with this project and this is why
I'm spending time making sure people understand our points.
> Again, our sincere thanks for your consideration of the project. I have high
> hopes that we may be able to work together on this project at some point in the
> future.

Same here. Thanks again for your kind reply.

Stefano Mazzocchi      One must still have chaos in oneself to be
                          able to give birth to a dancing star.
<stefano@apache.org>                             Friedrich Nietzsche

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