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From: "Bill Klenk" <bklenk@digitalinsurance.com>
To: "General@Xml. Apache. Org" <general@xml.apache.org>
Subject: FW: [vote] A native XML database project under Apache
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 09:54:23 -0400
Message-ID: <NFBBJBMAGLCGDHKGAIMBGEJKCBAA.bklenk@digitalinsurance.com>
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Disposition-Notification-To: "Bill Klenk" <bklenk@digitalinsurance.com>

+2 absolutely, we need a good starting point and dbXML. appears to be the
logical place. I am not sure about Boo Boo though.
Thanks
Bill Klenk

-----Original Message-----
From: Davanum Srinivas [mailto:dims@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 7:42 AM
To: general@xml.apache.org
Subject: RE: [vote] A native XML database project under Apache

+1. We need to start somewhere. dbXML is as good a starting place as
anything else...

Thanks,
dims

--- Carsten Ziegeler <cziegeler@sundn.de> wrote:
> Absolutely +1.
>
> It might be a little bit difficult, if the project starts with dbXML
> as a base to switch over to the "real" solution (I don't want to
> say that dbXML is bad, I even don't know it, but it's often the
> case when some new people are involved that they find a different
> solution etc.)
>
> But as having a base which you can discuss on is thousand times
> better than creating lots of theoretical threads with no praxis
> behind it, this should be the way to go. But there need to be
> some strong personalities in the project which are able to
> fulfill that job.
>
> Carsten
>
> > Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > while the world of native XML databases is full of marketing hype and
> > promises, it is evident (for all those who tried) that mapping general
> > XML schemas to relational databases can be sometimes very painful and
> > not very efficient.
> >
> > In fact, it is widely recognized from the database research community
> > that while well structured can be easily and efficiently mapped to a
> > relational database, less structured (often called semi-structured) data
> > is much more difficult to map.
> >
> > Don't get me wrong: there are a number of way to store XML in a database
> > to add ACID properties to XML documents, but while this is a
> > straightforward process for very repeatitive and well structured schemas
> > (invoices, stock quotes, money transactions), it is not so for
> > semi-structured schemas such as DocBook, SVG or even XSLT.
> >
> > I here you say: I use BLOBS and I'm fine with them. I'm sure you are,
> > but in all honesty, I'm not. And for a few reasons:
> >
> > 1) each documentation system requires a repository for document. This is
> > often called "content management system". Since publishing is going
> > toward replacing all content with an XML syntax (and we all love to see
> > that happening in full extend), we must consider that such a system will
> > require a persistent way to manage the content and a fast and efficient
> > way to query it.
> >
> > If you use BLOBS you loose an efficient way to look into the blobs
> > themselves so you are doomed before you even start.
> >
> > You can fragment the XML document into relational mapping to
> > semi-structured data (and remember that documentation is almost always
> > semi-structured!) but it can be shown that this is hard, very expensive
> > and might require (depending on the document schema) a very high number
> > of nested queries to translate even a very simple XPath expression.
> >
> > Add complexities such as namespaces and the proposed XQL and you see
> > that a XQL -> SQL might well be possible but is clearly going to become
> > a nightmare to manage and very painful to optimize for efficiency.
> >
> > The remaining solution is to create a specific solution that leaves
> > structured data to RDBMS (where they really shine, no question about it)
> > but moves semi-structured data over to a more specific and
> > algorithmically optimized system.
> >
> > Note that while ODBMS were supposed to solve the problem of
> > semi-structured data, they, in fact, do not.
> >
> > This is why we need a native XML DB solution with full support for
> > namespaced content, XPath and XQL for querying, RDF for metadata.
> >
> > 2) so, the content management system that everybody is crying out loud
> > for requires a storage solution and I believe that a native XML DB is
> > the way to go.
> >
> > Also because:
> >
> > 3) if we ever want to get deeper into the semantic web (and I,
> > personally, want), we must forget well structured data. Vocabularies
> > such as RDF, RDFSchema, Topic Maps and the like are *not* going to be
> > easily mapped into relational databases and efficiently searched.
> >
> > So, this is why I propose the creation of a project hosted here under
> > xml.apache.org to implement this effort.
> >
> > Since it's generally very hard to bootstrap an open development
> > community without some code to start working on, I suggest to start this
> > project over the code that the dbXML guys are willing to donate to the
> > ASF in order to create such development community that can research and
> > implement in this new field and, by doing so, hopefully lead the way
> > reducing the marketing crap and the hype around this.
> >
> > FYI, dbXML (www.dbxml.org) is an implementation of a native XML database
> > written in the Java language that is close to reaching its first final
> > release.
> >
> > I've been talking to one of the community leaders (here copied) that
> > independently came out with my same conclusion and wanted to propose
> > dbXML for donation even before I expressed my intentions.
> >
> > Also Sam Ruby has been subscribed to their development list watching
> > over them.
> >
> > dbXML was created with the sponsor of a commercial entity called "dbXML
> > Group" which still exists but has no economic energy to continue its
> > development and the main developers are now working on the project
> > unpaid.
> >
> > But I'd like something to be clear: I'm *NOT* proposing that Apache
> > takes over 'dbXML group' to save dbXML and continue its development. I'm
> > proposing that Apache creates a new project for the creation of a
> > production quality native XML database solution that implements existing
> > and future standards (and hopefully have the power to influence their
> > establishment) and that in order to help bootstrap the community, we
> > start with the current dbXML implementation which is going to be donated
> > to the ASF.
> >
> > To show this and to avoid confusion with past releases and the "dbXML
> > group" commercial entity, the project is *NOT* going to be called Apache
> > dbXML, but rather something without acronims, in the spirit of
> > xml.apache.org.
> >
> > Kimbro and I have been talking about "Apache BooBoo", but that is just
> > the first name that crossed my mind :) If you have better names, please,
> > let us discuss this publicly if the deal gets approuved.
> >
> > Anyway, the dbXML folks are willing to donate the code, to change the
> > name as long as we give proper credit to "dbXML group" for having
> > bootstrapped and donated the code (as we do for IBM, Lotus, Sun and
> > others), and more than willing to help in both development, user
> > support, research, community and evangelization. In fact, if the deal is
> > accepted by this list, they are even willing to close down the site and
> > move everything overhere with the new name.
> >
> > Let me finish by saying that I do not consider important what the actual
> > code implementation is (few, myself included, might not like some of
> > their architectural choices, such as the use of CORBA and Jaggernaut),
> > but I'm *NOT* asking for a vote on their _actual_ technological status,
> > I'm asking for a vote to create a community that can create, maintain
> > and show the power of a native XML DB solution.
> >
> > It might takes years to have something solid enough to compete with big
> > commercial names, but it is important, IMO, for Apache to have something
> > to say even on this front by creating a community and attracting people
> > and their ideas.
> >
> > In fact, the dbXML guys are willing to donate the code, but also very
> > happy about the possibility of a higher visibility that would bring more
> > people and more ideas into the design process that is going to happen
> > for their next major release.
> >
> > So, people, I'm asking you to judge the idea to create a community,
> > rather than the current dbXML implementation which is only a way to give
> > to users the meat the look for in that area, but then attract them for
> > new development and further research.
> >
> > Sorry for the long mail.
> >
> > Please, place your vote.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Stefano.
> >
> >
> >
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=====
Davanum Srinivas - http://jguru.com/dims/

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