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From "Ted Leung" <twle...@sauria.com>
Subject Re: -1 to Anakia [ or why the website is broken ]
Date Sat, 14 Jul 2001 06:20:38 GMT
The existing xml policy is "eat your own dogfood".

The current reality is that our dogfood (Stylebook) has gone bad.  There
are a variety of reasons for this, none of which really matter because they
are history.   We need a replacement.  Here are the criteria that a
replacement
need to satisfy IMHO:

1. It needs to be an actively maintained project - bugs need to be fixed and
questions
need to get answered.
2. It needs to have an XML input format - we must eat our own dogfood.
3. It needs to be straightforward to learn and operate -  any committer can
update the documentation or regenerate the website.
4. It needs to be accessible to non-programmers - so that technical writer
type folks can
contribute to documentation.
5. Performance is a non-criterion, because we may have to generate the
content off-line.
6. It needs to be possible for a user who downloads a build to somewhat
easily build the
docs.   From this follow that someone shouldn't need to download a zillion
packages just
to build the docs.  It's bad enough that they have to get stylebook now.
7. If we can use existing standards for stuff like this, we should.  Just
because Apache has 15
different templating systems doesn't mean we should use them all.

The next  problem is that the procedure for updating / maintaining the site
is tied up as folklore
in people's heads.  This needs to be clearly documented.  A good place to do
this would be on
the site.   Even better would be for this process to be automated as part of
a release build.

The problem after that is that the current site layout is too bandwidth
intensive.

Here's where I think we are on this (calling it a plan would be too strong):

Donald Ball has been working on getting the current site layout working on
Cocoon2.  Once he
does this we can talk about documenting/automating the site update process.
And thanks to
Donald for taking the time to do this!

As far as I know no one is working on fixing the site layout.  I think that
perhaps we ought to have a
contest for the site design.

If we want to change what we're doing that's fine.  But let's explicitly
have the discussion to do so.
If X2 and Axis are out of spec, then there's no point in changing them until
we agree on what we're
going to do to fix up the site.   If Jason needs something to do for short
term, I'd say just check in
the html.  I'm sympathetic to the desire to use a familiar tool.  I'm
looking at having to learn C2 also.

The site is in pretty bad shape, and it's high on my list of things that
need to get done soon.   Right
now the site is too hard to change, which means it isn't getting changed,
which means that there's
a whole bunch of info that people ought to have access to that they don't.

Ted

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Ruby" <rubys@us.ibm.com>
To: <general@xml.apache.org>
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: -1 to Anakia


> Scott Boag wrote:
> >
> > Hi Kids.  I hate to rain on the parade, but I think it would look pretty
> > funny to use Anakia instead of XSLT for the Xalan project.
>
> I don't believe that anybody suggested that Xalan use Anakia.
>
> There are several threads going on here.  IMHO:
>
> 1) Stylebook can be configured to use virtually any layout desired, but
the
> one chosen by the XML project is too graphics heavy.
>
> 2) Stylebook itself is not exactly maintained (Cocoon2 has been
threatening
> to replace it for ever)
>
> 3) The process for actually generating the site using stylebook is
> cumbersome at best.  I find that I get a wierd error which mysteriously
> goes away if I delete a specific cvs directory.  And the process of
knowing
> what generated files to check in is very error prone.
>
>  = = = =
>
> For reference, the jakarta policy, loosely paraphrased, is to allow each
> subproject autonomy in determing HOW they generate their web site as long
> as they conform to the look and feel of Jakarta.  That would be fine to
me,
> except for #1 above.
>
> What we need is a complete overhaul, top to bottom.  Meanwhile, telling
new
> subprojects that they must use stylebook and the current look and feel
> seems counterproductive to me.  And I can tell you that xerces2 and axis
> are completely out of spec...
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
>
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