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From "Ted Leung" <twle...@sauria.com>
Subject Re: Mixing Two Terminologies
Date Sun, 04 Mar 2001 22:16:01 GMT

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kimbro Staken" <kstaken@dbxmlgroup.com>
To: <general@xml.apache.org>
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 11:22 PM
Subject: Re: Mixing Two Terminologies

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ted Leung" <twleung@sauria.com>
> To: <general@xml.apache.org>
> Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 9:34 PM
> Subject: Re: Mixing Two Terminologies
> > > organization. Their role should really just be to gently nudge things
> > along
> > > to keep the organization on track to fulfill what ever stategic goals
> are
> > > outlined.
> >
> > I agree that more leadership is needed.  The question is how much.  I'd
> like
> > to see us start with as little as possible and add more if needed.
> >
> > The reasons for why the previous PMC have the roots in the history of
> > formation of the project.  That's why it's going to take blowing the old
> one
> > away
> > and getting a new one to make progress.  That doesn't mean that the new
> > needs to be super managerial right off the bat.
> Remember I didn't say the PMC should be "super managerial" I said "Their
> role should really just be to gently nudge things along". Basically what
> this means is that to the largest extent possible the PMC should let the
> projects run on their own while at the same time keeping their eye on the
> bigger picture. When things need to be adjusted the PMC nudges them along
> the way to get them back on track. I think we're actually in agreement on
> this point.

Violently ;-)

> > I see your scenario -- I guess I don't think that this is thinking like
> > business, since
> > some businesses have web sites at least as bad as what you describe
> > I
> > guess I'm just resisting the notion that to do a "quality" (for your
> > favorite definition
> > of quality) job, that we must be "business-like" (whatever that really
> > means).   Rather
> > than steal all our ideas from the business world - I want to see us
> continue
> > to develop
> > the ASF-style Open Source paradigm as something that we can give back to
> the
> > business world, along with the great code.
> But don't you see, we have the same goal! The difference is that I am
> that there is much to be learned from the other side of the fence and that
> learning those concepts will help us achieve that goal. You're  already
> applying some of the concepts as I pointed out before, you just don't want
> to think of it in those terms. Why is that? What do you have to fear?
> Open Source developers often state their position as being anti-business.
> You are doing the same. But I think you're projecting your distaste for
> the greed, politics and lies onto the fundamental concepts of running a
> business. The greed, politics and lies that we all hate so much are born
> of the fact that most commercial software enterprises are in the business
> making money not in the business of making software. When money is present
> you get greed and all the unsavory people who are attracted to money like
> moths to a street lamp. You are not in the business of making money you
> in the business of making great software. There is no other motivation and
> there is no reason to attract all those unsavory types that make
> software so unpleasent to work on. There is nothing wrong with the ideas
> business it is all the crap that comes along with the goal of making money
> that is the problem.

Again we're in violent agreement.  I don't like the business term because
exist to make money.  That's why it's good that the ASF is a foundation.  It
important how we market ourselves -- while it's find for us to take
and other ideas from businesses, it's not our goal to make money off this --
naive people will see the word business and assume that we are.   That's why
the terminology is important to me.  But I do agree that we are after the
same result,
and willing to use the same methods.

Quick!  Sign the peace treaty ;-)

> The faster the PMC recognizes that you are in the business of making great
> software the faster you will be able to leverage the GOOD business
> to help you in the business at hand.
> >
> > Maybe I'm just a dreamer...
> >
> Maybe I am too.
> Kimbro Staken
> Chief Technology Officer
> The dbXML Group L.L.C.
> http://www.dbxmlgroup.com
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