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From "Ted Leung" <twle...@sauria.com>
Subject Re: Volunteers needed: Reboot of the XML 'PMC'. re: Arved's comment
Date Fri, 02 Mar 2001 17:46:49 GMT
There are companies out there, most notably Covalent, that are
making these kinds of efforts using ASF code.   In the webserver domain,
both IBM and Oracle are now using httpd as the base for their application
server products.  I think that Apache has done pretty well without getting
directly involved in marketing.

I see a direct analog to Linux.  The Linux kernel hackers don't market or do
any of the business stuff - they leave that up to companies like RedHat,
Mandrake, SUSE, etc.   I think that we're in a similar situation.   I don't
it's to the ASF's interest to be viewed as a vendor.

We already had major political problems at the inception of xml.apache.org
of the involvement of too many big companies.  Becoming one ourselves will
create more problems.

----- Original Message -----
From: <Shane_Curcuru@lotus.com>
To: <general@xml.apache.org>
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 5:31 AM
Subject: Re: Volunteers needed: Reboot of the XML 'PMC'. re: Arved's comment

> A couple of add-on comments that these paragraphs made me think of:
> ---- you Kimbro Staken <kstaken@dbxmlgroup.com> wrote ----
> > ...I'm going to use a few naughty words here but
> > I think you need to treat the organization as a business. It isn't a
> > traditional business as your goal is not to make money but it is a
> > business just the same as any non-profit is a business. To this end you
> > need to insure that your management role is doing many of the things
> > that managers in traditional businesses are doing. This includes setting
> > direction, resolving disputes and yes even marketing(brrr. I can feel
> > the chill) :-).
> ---- you Arved Sandstrom <Arved_37@chebucto.ns.ca> wrote ----
> > ...Good points all (the rest of your post included). Apache prides
> on
> > being not just another software sweatshop, open-source or no
> > but in fostering a sense of community, and this is a very worthy goal.
> But
> > the main goal always has to be the end-user...after all, what is the
> point
> > of developing software otherwise?
> Thinking forward about Apache being a business (non-profit, yes!) and
> having the goal be towards the end-user: at what point do we also have a
> goal of targeting IT/IS managers and CTO's?
> I guess I see many of our communities focusing on supporting the users who
> join the community, and either actively or passively getting user
> requirements for them.  But how do we drive new users to join the
> in the first place?  And do we care how/why/when/what kind of new users
> join?  It feels like most of our users (at least in xalan-dev, where I
> the most experience) are reasonably technical types who are working on
> thier own small to medium size projects.  How many medium to large
> corporate IT managers actively come to xml.apache.org projects to evaluate
> them for large-scale deployment across their enterprise, and how easy is
> for them to implement these projects in their organizations?
> (It's fully possible I'm off on assuming what scale users are using our
> tools today; feel free to note big xml.apache.org success stories, which
> are always nice to hear!  I'm also not really sure how the 'marketing'
> or the idea of trying to attract large corporate users fits with the
> mentality)
> Why would I want to attract more large corporate IT types? Partly the
> prestige: even though we should "divorce ego from code", it's always nice
> to hear that some brand name company is using your software to run it's
> systems.  Mostly because it will bring many more users and developers to
> the community, some of who will have even new and better ideas.  Oh: and
> how do I think we should do this?  Partly with more thorough
> detailed overviews and install instructions, and more focused
> solution-based samples, and a little bit through outreach and maybe
> 'marketing'.
> Also comments on:
> ---- you Arved Sandstrom <Arved_37@chebucto.ns.ca> wrote ----
> > ... But XML Apache has another current
> > goal - "to provide feedback to standards bodies (such as IETF and W3C)
> from
> > an implementation perspective" - that covers this base, too; we are
> > responsible for generating quality feedback to the spec writers. Why?
> > Because we said so, ourselves. And I'm not sure we do that so well,
> either.
> This is very important!  On Xalan we have Scott, who most of you know by
> now, who's very active in the XSLT specs.  But I agree we could do a
> job on reminding each of our communities to think about the underlying
> specs and give us (or W3C, or whoever) comments on them.  I bet there are
> plenty of users who always get annoyed by such-and-such in the XYZ spec,
> but don't feel they have the voice or experience to give comments back.
> One thing Apache projects can do is allow any user to contribute ideas to
> the project community, and the community can expand and refine on the
> hopefully encouraging someone to give good comments back to the spec
> bodies.
> Wow, i didn't quite expect to be doing all of this when I was thinking
> about the PMC last night!
> - Shane
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