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From Brett McLaughlin <brett.mclaugh...@lutris.com>
Subject Re: What name?
Date Tue, 11 Jul 2000 22:36:54 GMT

Arnaud Le Hors wrote:
> Brett,
> I can't believe you're dragging this back into a Sun vs IBM thing. It is

I certainly did not mean to. If I did, I completely apologize - I, for
one, am not from Sun, and hate a lot of what Sun does (the SCSL for
example). James will be the first to tell you this ;-) I also think JSP
is a load of crap... but that's another mailing list ;-)

> true that most comitters have been IBMers so far. But this happened
> despite the fact we've been trying repeatedly to get the Sun folks to
> join us. Besides, Sun has made many public announcements that they

What I meant to focus on, and what we may have miscommunicated on, is
the /perception/ of what is happening. I will happily admit that I think
there are things going on that are not publicly recognized - I think IBM
folks that are committers, for example, earn their stripes before
getting commit privileges. But I also firmly maintain that the
perception is that this is not the case. People don't see that, because
it happens at Cupertino. Is this bad? Sort of - but I think it is more
of a learning experience, for /all/ of us. The _perception_, though, is
what we have to fight in an open source project. 

> support Xerces. At the same time, we've all made it very clear in many
> occasions that this was not IBM's parser, nor Sun's, but Apache's. This
> was stated again at the XML Apache BOF we had at JavaOne.

I know - I remember ;-) But I also know that people don't neccessarily
believe that. Is that their fault? Yes. Is there some blame on the
Xerces project as a whole (Sun, IBM, the whole group!)? Yes! Certainly
we all should have seen this and nipped it in the bud earlier. Now we
have to pay some prices, I believe, if we/you truly want this to be a

> So, PLEASE get over it!!...

I don't take it personally at all. In fact, I think I believe that
things are going a lot better than you think - but the people I get mail
from do not. And I'm not willing to argue it with them, because I can at
a minimum see where they are coming from. I'm not suggesting the process
of hard work change, I'm suggesting the way we show that hard work /is/
occuring become more open.

> Obviously I disagree with you on what you said about the name Xerces.
> Xerces is a recognized name and I believe there are more benefits in
> sticking to it than not. Otherwise, why would you want to call it Xerces

Which is OK ;-) We disagree on lots of stuff ;-)

> any time?? I don't buy any of your arguments about people being scared

I think having one Apache XML parser is probably the right thing. So I
would say it shoul eventually be Xerces to bring this new parser back
into line with the XML Apache line of names. If it was foo, and the new
codename sounded better with Xalan, Xang, etc., I wouldn't advocate
going back to "foo" obviously.

> simply by the name, and I don't see why we could explain to people how
> different the new one is after rather than before. It's only a matter of

I just don't think we should even spend the cycles to fight the battle
(it is one, version 2 means something completely differnt to people that
"new version") when we don't have to.

> communication. Feel free to spread the words.

Certainly, if it does become Xerces 2, I will. But I don't want to have
to spend that time if I don't need to!

Still, I certainly didn't mean to assault IBM, and hope that it is
clearer that it is the /perception/ I am more concerned with than the
reality. Heck, IBM pays me to write articles and moderate newsgroups! I
don't want to piss them off ;-)


> --
> Arnaud  Le Hors - IBM Cupertino, XML Technology Group
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Brett McLaughlin, Enhydra Strategist
Lutris Technologies, Inc. 
1200 Pacific Avenue, Suite 300 
Santa Cruz, CA 95060 USA 

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